- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 18:23:27 -0700
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
GCPM
----
- Reviewed some features in GCPM, including new float keywords,
columns() notation in 'float', and float snapping
Fragmentation
-------------
- RESOLVED: Accept the CSS3 Break proposal as stated in the minutes.
- RESOLVED: Publish a WD of CSS3 Break in a week after edits announced
if there are no objections.
====== Full minutes below ======
GCPM
----
Scribe: jdaggett
Håkon introducing gcpm
parts pragmatic, parts blue sky
in 2007, we had how to generate lists, glossaries, toc
showing example
using javascript
to generate index
shows page range rather than pages in index
wanted to highlight feedback from implementors
interesting - page floats
allows use to do paginated content on page and screen
shows demo from last f2f
implemented from proposals in gcpm
section 12 page and column floats
feedback from hyatt
added new flow-relative values
added line-left, line-right
fantasai: similar to start, end but doesn't change due to bidi
fantasai: terms defined in writing modes spec
glenn: i object, left is left, right is right
fantasai: so what does text-align: right mean in vertical?
stevez: no, no, no
stevez: can you say inline-left instead of line-left
stevez: wait, my reason is wrong...
more argument about left and right vs. start and end
fantasai and alex arguing more
alex: sorry, i still think left, right are bad terms
liam: why do you want to be bidi-independent
stevez: english text, right-aligned needs to be right-aligned
not start aligned
glenn: so you need right/left in vertical?
fantasai: we have left and right values for text-align, whether you like
them or not they need a defined meaning for vertical text
stevez: i think inline- would be better here than line-
florian: do we need over/under?
fantasai: We don't need those; you probably want before/after
bert: where does it go if you say before/after?
tabatkins: in english before is the same as top
liam: should be block-left, block-right
fantasai: wrt adding line-left/line-right in addition to start/end,
I don't care much
Håkon: i just copied hyatt's proposal
<Bert> (Seems 'before' means before the current block, not necessarily
the top of the page/column/BFC/whatever, but the description
is a bit short.)
Håkon: he also added the ability to span columns
fantasai: why not use column-span
Håkon: keep this on the float property is the proposal
stevez: not true Håkon
stevez: with a media query, i may vary the number of columns
discussion of columns used at different sizes
Håkon: in our implementation we couldn't do column spanning
Håkon: too many weird situations
Håkon: if you span an arbitrary element in multicolumn
stevez: you don't have enough there to fully explain the situation
Håkon: if you have two properties that cascade differently, may not
mesh well together
fantasai: column-spanning is effectively setting the width, that's a
separate thing from its position, which is what float is
setting.
fantasai: if you're making the argument of setting the column-relative
size in 'float', why not also make argument that width should
be set in 'float' too?
liam: content can span columns without flowing
Håkon: in opera, two different properties
Håkon: column-spanning has to be on the float
dbaron: if you're going to write that it's going to span columns,
what's the harm of writing that in the value of the 'float'
property?
alans: if you want to span two columns you can say, column-span(2)?
liam: i was just commenting on column-spanning content not always floating
* jdaggett why did i volunteer to scribe column spanning discussion….?
stevez: you would like it to extend back
discussion on whiteboard b/t
<fantasai> Håkon drew a 3-column box with three 2-column-spanning floats:
<fantasai> first float started in first column, spanned into second
<fantasai> second float started in second column spanned into third
<fantasai> question was what happens with third float
<fantasai> which starts in third column
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012May/att-0025/gcpm-colspan.jpg
liam: sometimes call "negative spanning"
liam: acm papers, tables occur where they occur in content, they span
there
Håkon: snap to nearest container edge
Håkon: e.g. near bottom, want to snap to bottom so don't have one line
between image and box edge
Håkon: related to widows/orphans behavior?
fantasai: don't use widows/orphans properties for this
Håkon: so what does snap mean?
fantasai: suggest e.g. snap(3em) = within 3em you snap
alans: you're trying to decide between syntax?
Håkon: no, an implementor has proposed it
Håkon: i think it would be good for comments to happen on the mailing list
fantasai: I've heard three things so far
(3) better syntax for snapping
(2) should use float: columns(2) or float + column-span?
(1) rename line-left/line-right to inline-left/inline-right?
Håkon: bert's issue
Håkon: about running headers
stevez: xsl uses flow-into and you pick a slot to put it into
Håkon: do we want this parameter for regions
arguing whether steve's xsl parameter covers the use case
Håkon: comment on example 11
Håkon: keyword approach also possible
glazou: that's cloning the flow into the region instead of moving it there
bert: don't know about syntax, want functionality
stevez: just noting the way it was done in xsl
Håkon: this is a problem to tackle
CSS Fragmentation
-----------------
Scribe: TabAtkins
fantasai: One issue, what uses specified height.
fantasai: Say I have a specified height of 500px on my element.
fantasai: And there was a large image in my content that spans a page break.
fantasai: So the image moves down to the next page, there's a gap left
in the old page.
fantasai: So does that gap count against my "500px height"?
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012May/att-0025/break-slice-clone.jpg
fantasai: Rossen and I thought it made sense to skip.
fantasai: when you're using box-decoration:slice, it's not very clear,
but for box-decoration:clone, it seems pretty clear that we
want to skip the gap when calculating height.
dbaron: Are any of the decoration drawn in the gap anyway?
dbaron: I'd prefer to skip all of that.
dbaron: I'm concerned about background-position interacting with that,
and avoiding drawing parts of a background more than once.
fantasai: [explains box-decoration:clone]
dbaron: My gut feeling is that I want, whether it uses borders,
background, or height, for it to be consistent with each other.
dbaron: We may want a control for the whole set later, but I think
picking a default for now is fine.
vhardy: Another issue on the mailing list is about, if the image moves
to the next page, can the following text move back up to fill
in the gap?
TabAtkins: Wasn't there a float keyword proposed to do something like that?
?: I think next-page, or if-room?
howcome: unless-room, but I think snap will do that now.
[off-topic discussion about floating]
fantasai: So with a specified height, I'm okay with not drawing
decorations in the gap.
fantasai: But with an auto-height element that's multiple pages tall,
with some gaps in the background would look weird.
dbaron: I think skipping would be normal behavior, actually.
plinss: Depends on what the background is for. If you have a fancy
background on the <body>, and your element uses a white
background to put something flat under the text, you'll
expect it to continue without gaps.
fantasai: I think it doesn't make sense to slice the background in
the middle of the page.
szilles: For government usage, they *really* wanted a specific
background (like a repeated "mandatory" image) to cover all
and only the areas that are explicitly the given element.
szilles: So you want it to gap.
[some missed discussion about how drawing in the gap is like drawing
in the margin area]
fantasai: [gave an example with two floats, both page-breaking to
the next page but on different vertical positions]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012May/att-0025/break-slice.jpg
fantasai: Proposal: first, do you use up specified height for the gap?
The answer is "no, never".
fantasai: Second, when do you draw the background/borders in the gap?
Answer is, in the fixed height, no. In auto height, yes.
TabAtkins: the value of this is that it preserves the invariant that
dbaron wanted to preserve, while looking good for both for
the common cases.
RESOLVED: Accept the CSS3 Break proposal as stated in the minutes.
fantasai: Then can we publish a WD?
howcome: No comment against that particular request, but I think in
general we should be asking for publication against the current
WD, not against a future spec based on pending edits.
plinss: In general, I agree. I think it's safe to make a provisional
request here.
RESOLVED: Publish a WD of CSS3 Break in a week after edits announced
if there are no objections.
Received on Wednesday, 16 May 2012 01:23:59 UTC