Re: Alignment of paragraphs with unicode-bidi: plaintext [css3-text] [css3-writing-modes]

> Ok, I have
>     An element immediately contains a bidi paragraph if the element
itself,
>     but none of its descendants, is a block container or bidi-isolating
>     inline that contains the entire bidi paragraph.

It is not immediately obvious that the "that contains the entire bidi
paragraph" clause applies to both the "block container" and "bidi-isolating
inline" cases. It may be a little clearer if it is phrased as:

An element immediately contains a bidi paragraph if the element itself, but
none of its descendants, both contains the entire bidi paragraph and is
either a block container or bidi-isolating inline.

>> I am not sure why you use the term "inline base direction"
>> (of a bidi paragraph) instead of just "base direction".

> See http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-flow
> It's to contrast it with the block flow direction.

Writing Modes defines inline base direction as a property of a writing mode
(along with block flow direction). The definition being proposed for Text,
on the other hand, is talking about a property of a bidi paragraph. An
"inline base direction" property has never been defined for paragraphs.
What UAX #9 does define for paragraphs is "paragraph embedding level" and
then "paragraph direction [...] in some contexts [...] also known as the
base direction". Writing Modes itself, when talking about a property of a
paragraph, uses the terms "paragraph embedding level" and "base
directionality", but not "inline base direction".

I have no problem with Text talking about the inline base direction of a
line box. (This, I think is what Writing Modes is actually talking about).
In fact, perhaps Text should actually give a precise definition of a line
box's inline base direction (as we have been discussing here), and then
simply say that "the start and end edges of a line box are relative to the
line box's inline base direction".

>     In most cases, the start and end edges of a line box are determined

Or, according to the approach above, "the inline base direction of a line
box is determined"

>     by the containing block's computed 'direction'.
>     However if its containing block has ''unicode-bidi: plaintext''
[[!CSS3-WRITING-MODES]],
>     the start and end edges of a line box will be determined by
>     the inline base direction of the bidi paragraph to which it belongs:

Drop "inline", as explained above.

>     that is, the bidi paragraph immediately contained by the line box's
>     containing block for which the line box holds content.
>     If that bidi paragraph contains no content (i.e. contains no atomic

I think a "However" would be appropriate at the start of this sentence.

>     inlines or characters other than the paragraph-breaking character,
>     if any),
>     the direction used is

the line box's inline base direction is derived from

>     that of the previous bidi paragraph
>     in the containing block, or, if this is the first bidi paragraph in
>     the containing block, then that given by the 'direction' property
>     of the containing block.

I think I have a much better idea here: instead of deriving it from the
previous bidi paragraph (which is actually ill-defined), derive it from the
preceding line box (in the same containing block). Thus, this would be:

However, if that bidi paragraph contains no content (i.e. contains no atomic
inlines or characters other than the paragraph-breaking character, if any),
the line box has the same inline base direction as the preceding line box in
its containing block, or, if it is the containing block's first line box,
the
computed 'direction' of the containing block.

> Another question: should this definition also affect text-indent?

Yes! This underscores the need for defining the inline base direction of a
line box.

> What about hanging-punctuation?

I guess. If I understand correctly, the concept comes from East Asian
languages, with which I am not familiar.

Aharon

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 1:43 AM, fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>wrote:

> On 04/01/2012 07:38 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the response and for the kind words!
>>
>> I am very happy and relieved that we agree on the ideas. I also like most
>> of your changes to the wording. However, I think the
>> wording still needs a little tweaking.
>>
>> For unicode-bidi:plaintext, the spec currently has:
>>
>>      An element immediately contains a bidi paragraph if it is a block
>>
>>      container or bidi-isolating inline and no other such elements
>> intervene
>>      between it and the bidi paragraph.
>>
>>
>> I have three issues here:
>> - It does not say that the element has to contain the paragraph.
>> - I think that the "intervene" is a little too loose for a definition.
>> - I don't think that that the "inline" in "bidi-isolating inline" is
>> necessary.
>>
>> Thus, I would tweak it a little further:
>>
>> An element immediately contains a bidi paragraph if both of the following
>> conditions hold for the element but not for any of
>> its descendants:
>> - The element contains the entire paragraph.
>> - The element is either bidi-isolating or a containing block.
>>
>
> Ok, I have
>      An element immediately contains a bidi paragraph if the element
> itself,
>      but none of its descendants, is a block container or bidi-isolating
>      inline that contains the entire bidi paragraph.
>
> Does that look right?
>
>
>  For alignment,  the spec currently has:
>>
>>    The start and end edges of a line box are determined by the inline
>> base direction of the "bidi paragraph" to which it
>>    belongs. In most cases, this means using the containing block's
>> computed ‘direction’. However if containing block has
>>    ‘unicode-bidi: plaintext’ [CSS3-WRITING-MODES], the inline base
>> direction of its line boxes will be determined by the bidi
>>    paragraphs it immediately contains. In the case of an empty bidi
>> paragraph, the direction used is that of the previous
>>    bidi paragraph in the containing block, or, if this is the first bidi
>> paragraph in the containing block, then the
>>    ‘direction’ property is used.
>>
>>
>> (Thanks for making the additional change re empty bidi paragraphs.)
>>
>> My issues here:
>> - I am not sure why you use the term "inline base direction" (of a bidi
>> paragraph) instead of just "base direction". How is
>> the base direction "inline"? (This is not new. You were already using
>> "inline base direction" before my suggested changes.)
>>
>
> See http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-**writing-modes/#text-flow<http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-flow>
> It's to contrast it with the block flow direction.
>
>
>  - There is no definition of how a line box "belongs" to a bidi paragraph.
>> (This was already a problem in my proposal. The
>> "belonging" was explained outside of the change I suggested.) I think
>> that the "to which it belongs" has to be expanded to an
>> actual definition, which is composed of two parts:
>>   - The line box contains text belonging to the bidi paragraph
>>
>
> This isn't technically true, since all the text could belong to a bidi
> paragrah within the bidi paragraph to which the line box belongs.
>
>
>    - The bidi paragraph is immediately contained by the line box's
>> containing block.
>>
>
> Right.
>
>
>  - In the current wording, the first sentence ("the start and end edges of
>> a line box are determined by the inline base
>> direction of the "bidi paragraph" to which it belongs") is incorrect when
>> that paragraph is empty. To deal with this, the
>> empty paragraph handling has to be further integrated into the rest of
>> the definition.
>> - "Empty paragraph" is not defined. The naive definition - a paragraph
>> containing nothing - is incorrect, since it also has to
>> cover a paragraph containing nothing but the terminating (B-class)
>> character.
>>
>> So, here is my attempt at revised wording.
>>
>> Most of the time, the start and end edges of a line box are determined by
>> the containing block's computed ‘direction’.
>> However, if the containing block has ‘unicode-bidi: plaintext’, they are
>> determined by the base direction of the bidi
>> paragraphs the containing block immediately contains
>> [CSS3-WRITING-MODES], in the following manner. Each line box displays
>> some part of exactly one bidi paragraph immediately contained by the line
>> box's containing block. If this or some preceding
>> bidi paragraph immediately contained by the containing block is non-empty
>> (i.e. contains characters other than the terminating
>> bidi-paragraph-breaking character, if any), that non-empty bidi
>> paragraph's base direction determines the line box's start and
>> end edges. Otherwise, they are determined by the the containing block's
>> computed ‘direction’.
>>
>
> Alright, here's mine:
>
>      In most cases, the start and end edges of a line box are determined
>
>      by the containing block's computed 'direction'.
>      However if its containing block has ''unicode-bidi: plaintext''
> [[!CSS3-WRITING-MODES]],
>      the start and end edges of a line box will be determined by
>      the inline base direction of the bidi paragraph to which it belongs:
>      that is, the bidi paragraph immediately contained by the line box's
>      containing block for which the line box holds content.
>      If that bidi paragraph contains no content (i.e. contains no atomic
>      inlines or characters other than the paragraph-breaking character,
>      if any), the direction used is that of the previous bidi paragraph
>
>      in the containing block, or, if this is the first bidi paragraph in
>      the containing block, then that given by the 'direction' property
>      of the containing block.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>     Fixed the incorrect example. I should probably add some more of yours,
>> too. :)
>>
>>
>> I agree that more examples are necessary. Here is what I would suggest
>> adding (this includes the explanations,which I think
>> would be quite useful to the reader):
>>
>
> Ok, added.
>
> Another question: should this definition also affect text-indent?
> What about hanging-punctuation?
>
> ~fantasai
>