- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:23:27 -0800
- To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
Unless you're correcting the minutes,
*Please respond by starting a new thread with an appropriate subject line.*
Style Attributes
----------------
RESOLVED: Publish Style Attribute PR as soon as we have the
implementation reports.
Selectors 4
-----------
Daniel raised some concern that web designers are assuming everything
in Selectors 4 will make it to CR, even though it's a very early stage
draft and we don't know what will make it and what not. (The ability
to select ancestors of elements is a particular area of concern since
it is difficult to optimize for CSS selection.)
Paginated Layouts (GCPM)
------------------------
Håkon presented a demo of a new paginated layout feature in Opera: it
uses the 'overflow' properties to switch the UA into a paginated mode.
The demo also included some new features for UI to link independent
documents together into a single paged presentation.
http://people.opera.com/howcome/2011/reader
====== Full minutes below ======
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/30-css-irc#T20-04-28
http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-css-irc
http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20111031#l-181
Style Attributes
----------------
Arron: I didn't finish the implementation report yet, but I ran all the
tests, all three of them.
Arron: There needs to be three other tests, but all browsers pass except
one case which is passed by 2
dbaron: Is there a test for rejecting if there are braces around it?
fantasai: yes.
Arron: I'll try to finish off tonight.
ACTION Arron: finish implementation report and tests
<trackbot> Created ACTION-384
ACTION fantasai: Publish test suite and implementation report on w3.org
<trackbot> Created ACTION-385
RESOLVED: Publish Style Attribute PR as soon as we have the impl reports.
Selectors 4
-----------
glazou: Selectors L4 triggered a major reaction from web designer community
because of subject selector and :matches()
glazou: I can see that people don't really understand that presence of a
feature in a WD doesn't mean it will be in an implementation
glazou: I would like us to, at least for :matches() and subject selector,
to clean up things asap
glazou: If it's not going to be implemented by browser vendors because
it doesn't fit into your strategy or impl architecture,
glazou: then remove it from the spec quickly
fantasai: :matches() is already implemented
glazou: My fear is just that if we have something nice on paper that we
find is too expensive to code, we should remove it quickly.
fantasai: I think trying to cut off brainstorming work because people will
interpret it wrong is bad.
fantasai: also, the subject indicator may wind up in batch processors if
not in browsers
glazou: I'm not saying that, just that if our brainstorming finds something
isn't implementable we should remove it as quickly as possible.
fantasai: could be done in browsers, but will require careful optimization
work
fantasai: so may take awhile to find out
arno: Do we know if anyone's currently planning to implement it?
fantasai: There are tons of features - it's a very early stage draft - so
we don't know that yet.
glazou: I just didn't expect such a massively positive reaction to it as
we got.
szilles: So this falls into "careful what you promise, they might ask for it".
glazou: So I'm specifically asking for devs to evaluate implementability
as soon as possible on that feature.
fantasai: What's in :matches() is absolutely implementable, since it's
currently just syntactic sugar.
fantasai: So we don't need feedback on that.
fantasai: (At least, not immediately.)
fantasai: It's the subject indicator that needs feedback.
<dbaron> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=418039 is the Mozilla
bug on :subject
tantek: What about :has()?
<arno> indicator -> selector
tantek: It's in jQuery, it's been adopted and liked.
fantasai: I specifically went away from that because it's harder to implement.
TabAtkins: Simple useful example: "label:has(:checked) + p"
fantasai: You could use :matches() and the subject indicator to do the same.
<Bert> (Tab's example doesn't work, does it? The p is not a sibling of the
label, but a sibling of the labels's parent.)
fantasai: "label:matches(? > :checked) + p"
fantasai: [explains her example further]
<dbaron> Clearly we should just use the ‽ operator or the ¡ or ¿ operator.
<tantek> please no more symbols with strange meanings
* tantek prefers to avoid CSS hieroglyphics
* hober CSS IS *&@%#&*%^ AWESOME!
<dbaron> ok, how about the 美 symbol :-)
dbaron: The spec should say that using the subject indicator twice in a
selector makes it invalid.
tantek: I still think :has() is a superior syntax. If you want to put
restrictions on its functionality to match the subject indicator,
fine, but use the better syntax.
<dbaron> Let's avoid Dr. Streetmentioner's 1001 Tenses for Time Travelers
fantasai: The interesting cases that :has() allows are precisely those
that are much harder to implement.
fantasai: Selectors *never* go down multiple branches when matching, right
now.
fantasai: Tab's example requires going down one branch and then going down
another.
Bert: The XPath syntax may be easier here, where it has an explicit
ancestor selectors.
dbaron: It's less hard to implement, than that it's hard to track dynamic
changes.
dbaron: For example, if you're selecting (in Tab's example), when the
input is checked or not, you need to quickly figure out which
elements need to be restyled, without redoing the entire page's
layout.
GCPM
----
howcome: I'd like to talk about what's new.
howcome: Most of this is based on page floats, but also paged overflow.
http://people.opera.com/howcome/2011/reader
howcome: You can tell an element to overflow into pages.
tantek: So it's a manual <marquee>?
howcome: The other thing from GCPM is page floats. These photos [in his
slides] are floats spanning multiple columns.
howcome: It works even better on a tablet.
howcome: So basically we can create an e-reader.
howcome: Paged layouts have been used forever in real life. Also in lots
of apps, like flipboard.
howcome: [shows an example of paged wikipedia]
howcome: It has a lot of nice properties.
howcome: It avoids cut lines on the top and bottom of the screen when
scrolling, frex.
howcome: Some things were *designed* for paged presentations, like
children's book.
howcome: There's tons of gutenberg text, for example, that nobody will
read because it's not paged.
[shepazu objects]
howcome: We've implemented it in Opera, and have an OM for it.
howcome: [shows example of some presentation showing the current page, etc.]
howcome: It's very simple. The basic setup is with a 'paged' value for
overflow, and the nav is done through an at-rule.
plinss: How does it print?
howcome: Quite well. Opera doesn't print well, but if you pipe it to a
good printing tool, it works well.
plinss: When you're doing pagination of an element in the page, what
happens when you print the whole page? Where's the overflow?
howcome: [shows the code example to set it up]
fantasai: Since the overflow property on <html> is propagated to the
viewport, you don't need the height:100% there.
fantasai: Last time, we were thinking of having 'paged' be a value for
overflow-style.
howcome: Yes, 'overflow' is a shorthand. The value can go anywhere,
it doesn't matter right now.
howcome: You can distinguish between pages being side-by-side, or below
each other.
tantek: In Japanese, you get pages right to left.
fantasai: So you also have to check writing-mode, not just direction.
howcome: Right. If I say "paged-x", I take whichever logical direction
is on the horizontal axis.
shepazu: The scrollbar gives nice discoverability of how much content is
left. Is that still there?
shepazu: Could there be a property that adds an indicator of the expected
flow left?
shepazu: "If there's another page, put an indicator there"
plinss: There's an example in the spec with "paged-x-controls" for that,
I guess.
glazou: How does this interact with @page rules?
howcome: Right now, our impl doesn't pay attention. In the future, if
you set the viewport to be overflow:scroll, it'll interact.
howcome: If a line runs over the page (in the direction perpendicular
from the main scrolling direction), it just gets cut (you can't
see it in any way).
howcome: Same as with multicol.
Scribe: fantasai
Tab: These us multicol, so you have columns: 3 or whatever.
Tab: If you're using columns, the overflow columns are to the side.
fantasai: The columns are not overflowing the box. They're overflowing
the page, and go to the next page. It just happens that the
next page is physically placed to the side rather than below
in this case.
howcome: you see this in tablet apps, that do this repeatedly
howcome: This is a very simple sketch.
howcome shows page shift effects
Brad: I think that should be up to the UA, so the UA can provide a
consistent interface
glazou: I don't see it as only for tablets. It's a wonderful spec to match
the effects of switching slides in a powerpoint
glazou: I think the primary usage of that will be slideshows, much more
than tablet browsing
molly: possibly, but I can see designers really loving it
glazou: You can define navigation between 2 pages in same document, or
between 2 documents.
glazou: One issue we have with slideshows to dissolve one slide and show
the next slide; we don't have the next slide yet when we load the
document.
molly: I want to make the case for this and not just slide shows.
molly: Anyone read the NYT? Exactly what people are doing in NYT reader
molly: it's being adopted a lot esp by older users who are not computer-savvy
howcome: Met with NYT last week, who are doing all this in JS. They are
saying please save us from the JavaScript
howcome: I'm really euphoric about this. I think it's the best thing that's
happened in a long time.
sylvaing: Since the Romans!
howcome: It's so simple. No new properties, just new values on existing
properties
howcome: And then it's the at-page thing, which attaches to link elements
in HTML
howcome: here we tie thse relationships to the directions with an at-rule
howcome shows example of @navigation using link-rel() notation
howcome: If we want to compete with the apps here, I think we need to
provide this form of interaction
plinss: I think it's great on the root element
plinss: When its on the child element, and you turn the page, what happens?
howcome: Here it's on the child element
plinss: Now hit print.
howcome: I see your point.
fantasai: I think you should print the page over again with the next child
page until you run out of content in the child
fantasai: Would solve lots of problems with fixed positioning
fantasai: Although it would be weird if you had more than one paged child
Tantek: Shouldn't print starting at what you're looking at, should print
the entire document.
Tantek: Wrt slideshows, it's horrible because then you don't get anchors
to the slides
tantek: If you do it with anchors tags, HTML5 history, fine. I've built that.
Tantek: But you can't do dynamic paging with anchors
plinss: It's the same problem of scrolling down to a page and wanting to
point someone at that point.
Tantek: yes, but the expectation is different: if I'm on a page, I expect
to send a link to the page. If I'm in a scrolling document, I
expect a link to that page to point at the top
...
howcome: If I'm at the end of the document, it goes to the next one
Doug: How do you know what's the next document?
howcome: with HTML <link> tags
howcome: you tie them to the navigation like this
Doug: As you go to a new page with a fragment identifier, you update to
that fragment identifier. That solves Tantek's problem.
Tantek: Multiple navigation with a child?
jdaggett: If you have 2 elements that are paginated
Tantek: You'd have to scope per fragment the navigation rules if you have
a paged child inside a paged document
glazou: Just use a page break there. Define a page break after your sldies
howcome: For slides that's fine. But for a newspaper article you don't
want all the newspaper articles in one document.
howcome explains url-doc(), which is a url relative to the document, not
the style sheet.
glazou: I think you should resurrect selectors on the right-hand side.
This is too specific to HTML. Should be able to do this in any
kind of markup
glazou: Should be able to retrieve URLs from link anywhere in the prose.
glazou: Smells like selector on right-hand side of property
<TabAtkins> We have an existing function that can be used here - element()
glazou: Looks like attr(link[rel=index], href)
Doug: there's nothing HTML-specific about link relationships
glazou: Next step that you are going to take Håkon is showing multiple
pages into one single viewport
glazou: To be able to select 5th page directly for example.
glazou: So I suggest you think about this and put it in your proposal
howcome: I'm going ot show you a book I printed in CSS.
howcome: This is a replication of Digte by Henrik Ibsen from 1879. Each
word on exactly the same page.
Bert: If I swipe right to the next document, expect that going left
brings me back. But that depends on the navigation styles in the
other document
Steve: I think it's a mistake to put the navigation in the style here.
If you want to link together a bunch of document, should have
some kind of manifest.
plinss: this is outside the scope of CSS, but yes there's a use case
for some kind of manifest that expresses these relationships
fantasai: The links among documents can be expressed in HTML. The bit
that's out-of-scope is mapping those to navigation gestures
...
plinss: It should be next and previous
howcome: That's already in the HTML, don't need the CSS.
Steve: I think there's a difference between what happens in a document,
which you specify with paged-x and paged-y, and what happens across
documents, where I don't think it's the role of CSS to say. But
getting to the end of a document is an event, and you could say what
happens when you get to that event.
glazou: I have a lot of comments on your document.
howcome: Email probably works better if we want others to participate
as well.
howcome: So this is most of what's new in the GCPM. Maybe continue tomorrow?
Tantek: Request to add a photo of the folks that were here 7 years ago
Meeting closed.
<RRSAgent> http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-css-minutes.html
Received on Monday, 28 November 2011 22:24:42 UTC