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Re: [css3-lists] Published as WD!

From: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:00:43 -0700
Message-ID: <CAAWBYDD2JswnQ83OqTOUuUS86eAqTR94mX=cy3ruaUxvpnsdmQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin" <aharon@google.com>
Cc: Øyvind Stenhaug <oyvinds@opera.com>, www-style@w3.org
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:22 AM, Aharon (Vladimir) Lanin
<aharon@google.com> wrote:
>>> 1. For a list-item-position:outside list item, the content of a marker
>>> is in a separate paragraph for bidi purposes. Its paragraph direction
>>> is taken from the list container's direction.
>> The spec seems to be missing details on how this is supposed to work.
>> The spec didn't have these details, but it does now.
> I had assumed that this was implied by the spec's statement that the
> list-item-position:outside list item puts the marker in a "separate
> marker box". I am glad it has been spelled out.

It's in a separate box that is then absolutely positioned.  I don't
know whether that puts it in a separate paragraph for bidi purposes or

>>> 2. For a list-item-position:outside list item, the marker box is
>>> horizontally flush against one side of the list item box. It is the
>>> "start" side relative to the list container's direction. Thus, the
>>> list item's text-align affects the position of both the list item and
>>> the marker.
>> the list item's text-align has no effect on the position of the marker.
> I am very happy to hear that I misunderstood this! Thus, just to make
> absolutely sure,
> <ol><li>hi</li><li style="text-align:right">bye</li></ol>
> will produce something like this:
> 1. hi
> 2.                        bye
> ? (I am hoping that the answer is yes.)

Yes.  That's the current behavior of Webkit and modern IE, which is
what I based the 'outside' behavior off of.  (I think I describe
modern IE's behavior exactly, actually, because it's very sane.)

>>>> 4. Under the current proposal, is there currently any way to get the
>>>> marker placed horizontally flush against the "start" side relative to
>>>> the *list item*'s direction, as list-item-position:hanging would have
>>>> done? Sometimes, apparently, people do want the markers to switch
>>>> sides in a mixed-direction list.
>>> No.  I did have a 'hanging' value that would do this, but we dropped
>>> it due to lack of use-cases.
>> s/we/I/ since that was not a WG decision. Note also that we have explicit
>> resolutions on this exact issue stating that "list-item-position: outside"
>> places the marker on the start side of the list-item based on the list-item's
>> directionality.
> We all agree that in most cases, users want a list to come out *by
> default* with the marker on the start side of the list-item based on
> the list's (not the list item's) directionality. The reason for the
> (contradicting) decision above was backward compatibility in a case
> where the browsers do show interoperability. *However*, that decision
> came together with the strong hope that the HTML default style sheet
> would come to the rescue and define its own default (different from
> the CSS default) that would base it on the list's direction, as the
> user actually wants. I can live with that, but the thing is that HTML5
> is in Last Call, and if we need it to say something about li in its
> default stylesheet, *this is the time to do it*. So, either:
> a. We decide, *now*, that the CSS default is going to wind up being to
> base the marker's position on the list's direction, in which case the
> HTML5 default stylesheet does not have to say anything.
> b. Or, if we can not come to such a decision, we decide, *now*, what
> the final syntax is going to be to base the marker's position on the
> list's direction, and get that into the HTML5 default stylesheet,
> *now*.

Note: HTML's LC is not actually important.  Regardless of what process
hoops the HTMLWG has to jump through, HTML will be developed
continuously, and browsers pay attention to the WHATWG copy, not the
chopped up and redacted W3C copy of the spec.  We are not bound by the
HTMLWG's artificial timeline.

Even if we were, UA style sheets are only ever an informative
recommendation, not a normative requirement.  CSS can recommend
different behavior than HTML if necessary (though avoiding any such
conflicts is of course ideal).

>>> Can you give examples of places where people actually want
>>> [list-item-position:hanging], or the behavior is clearly reasonably
>>> attractive?
> Originally, I was convinced that no one would want it. And to this day
> I have never met a Hebrew speaker who wanted that layout. In fact, the
> Arabic and Farsi speakers with whom I have talked about it had no use
> for it either. However, someone once sent me a URL to a scan of an
> Arabic book page actually using this layout. Unfortunately, that URL
> no longer works... Thus, although I no longer have a real live
> example, I have a nagging feeling that there will someday be someone
> who wants it. But it must not be allowed to remain the bottom-line
> default that the user gets!

That's okay, it's not the default.  'outside' clearly describes a
different behavior.

Given that your only example was a scan of a single book, and many rtl
writers have told you they *don't* want it, I'm inclined to leave it
out of the spec right now.  We can always add it to a later version if

>>>> 5. Is there any objection to HTML5 specifying in the default style
>>>> sheet li {text-align:match-parent;}? I have suggested this in the
>>>> past, and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10824 is still
>>>> open for this purpose.
>>> Is this actually required anymore?  Outside markers now pay attention
>>> to the parent's direction without relying on text-align at all (it's
>>> part of the details of "position:marker").  Was there any other
>>> use-case for match-parent?
> There definitely is a use case. For short list items in a wide
> available area, match-parent definitely gives a neater appearence.
> Compare:
> a. herring
> b. lox
> and
> a. herring
> b. lox
> c.                                                        HSIFETIHW
> Nevertheless, for long list items that span several lines, and
> especially if the available area is narrow, "start" is best.

Ah, yeah, makes sense.  I'm willing to make the change, or let Text
make the change, as long as the compat impact isn't worrisome.

>>>> 6. Given that markers are often counters with strong-directional
>>>> contain (e.g. Latin letters), it is important that
>>>> list-item-position:inside marker content be isolated for bidi purposes
>>>> from what follows it in the list item, at least by default. Should
>>>> this be done by making unicode-bidi:isolate be the default for
>>>> ::marker?
>>> I don't have any problem with it.  Do inside list markers currently
>>> affect bidi resolution in browsers?  I don't know enough about bidi to
>>> really test this.
>> Here's my attempt:
>> <!doctype html>
>> <title>Bidi isolation of inside list marker</title>
>> <ol dir="rtl" style="list-style: upper-alpha inside">
>>   <li>B</li>
>> </ol>
>> In Gecko, Presto and WebKit it looks like
>> B .A
>> which is what would happen with unicode-bidi:isolate on the marker, if
>> I understand correctly. In IE8 it looks like
>> A.B
> You understand correctly, and indeed IE8 has it as you show it, which
> is bad. BTW, if you take out the <!doctype html>, IE8 does it like the
> others. Hurray for quirks mode...

Cool, I'll add it to the default stylesheet then instead of making it
a special aspect of 'outside' markers.

(It's too bad that this is the one place where IE's behavior being
sane and reasonable wasn't enough to make it desirable.)

Received on Thursday, 21 July 2011 16:01:30 UTC

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