RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after definitions in LR vertical writing mode

The issue is that, in Mongolian, block progression does not match to the baseline.

In that case, margin-before is left, but "before" value of ruby position should be right because it's based on baseline, not on block progression.

I agree with fantasai that we should come up with a new pair of words that indicates directions against baseline. And I would vote "over/under" than "above/below", as the consistency with the underline makes sense to me.


Regards,
Koji Ishii

-----Original Message-----
From: www-style-request@w3.org [mailto:www-style-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Zilles
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 1:36 AM
To: Richard Ishida; 'fantasai'; www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International'
Subject: RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after definitions in LR vertical writing mode

I agree with Richard, especially since Ruby seems more common on vertical text.

Steve Zilles


> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international- 
> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 6:11 AM
> To: 'fantasai'; www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International'
> Subject: RE: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after 
> definitions in LR vertical writing mode
> 
> My first instinct is to question whether there is an issue here. Is it 
> a problem that ruby text labelled 'before' will appear to the left of 
> vertical mongolian text?  Before and after refer to the position 
> relative to the block progression, in my mind. It's not about top of 
> line coincidence.
> 
> I think that above and below are confusing, since they suggest 
> physical locations that are not appropriate for vertical text.
> 
> (Note that the CSS Ruby module says " vertical-ideographic layout 
> mode, the ruby appears on the right side of the base" - mongolian isn't ideographic.
> That could certainly be made clearer with a note.)
> 
> RI
> 
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> 
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://rishida.net/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: www-international-request@w3.org [mailto:www-international- 
> > request@w3.org] On Behalf Of fantasai
> > Sent: 26 September 2010 15:15
> > To: www-style@w3.org; 'WWW International'
> > Subject: [css3-ruby] [css3-text] Position values and before/after
> definitions in
> > LR vertical writing mode
> >
> > In top-to-bottom horizontal writing mode (English, most other 
> > scripts)
> and
> in
> > right-to-left vertical writing mode (CJK), the "before" side and the
> effective
> > top of the line (wrt vertical alignment, glyph rotation, etc) coincide.
> >
> > See
> >
> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-text/diagrams/te
> xt-
> flo
> w-
> > vectors-tb.png
> >
> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-text/diagrams/te
> xt-
> flo
> w-
> > vectors-rl.png
> >
> > But in left-to-right vertical writing mode (Mongolian), the "before" 
> > side
> and
> > the effective top of the line do not coincide. See the illustration here:
> >    http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/vertical-
> > text/diagrams/mongolian-vectors.jpg
> >
> > The "before" side of a line is to the left. The "top" (ascender) 
> > side of
> a
> line
> > is to the right.
> >
> > If ruby-position and text-underline-position use "before" to mean 
> > "on the right side of the line" in vertical text, then we have a 
> > problem where "before"
> > means
> > different sides of an item depending on what property is involved.
> >
> > Either the definitions should be updated to depend on whether the 
> > block flow is right-to-left or left-to-right, or the keywords should 
> > be changed to something else to avoid a conflict in meaning. I 
> > suggest the latter, since I
> suspect
> that
> > the current definitions are the ones that are typographically relevant.
> >
> > However, I haven't encountered any really good pairs of keywords. 
> > (Koji
> and I
> > are using "above" and "below" for now.)
> >
> > Richard, do you have any thoughts on this?
> >
> > ~fantasai
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3159 - Release Date: 
> > 09/25/10
> > 18:45:00
>

Received on Wednesday, 29 September 2010 18:38:07 UTC