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Re: [css3-text-layout] Towards better support of CJK user requirements (was New editor's draft - margin-before/after/start/end etc)

From: Andrew Fedoniouk <news@terrainformatica.com>
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:22:22 -0700
Message-ID: <A884B4E3622445349B92EA6D6C1838C4@terra3>
To: "MURATA Makoto \(FAMILY Given\)" <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>, H虧onWium Lie <howcome@opera.com>
Cc: <www-style@w3.org>, "Jaeho Lee" <jaeho@uos.ac.kr>, "Ning Li" <ningli@public2.bta.net.cn>, <komachi@y-adagio.com>, "KOBAYASHI Tatsuo\(FAMILY Given\)" <tlk@kobysh.com>, "Seiichi Kato" <seiichik@microsoft.com>, "Masanori Kusunoki" <Masanori.Kusunoki@microsoft.com>, <yjkweon@keris.or.kr>, "Yong-Sang Cho" <zzosang@gmail.com>, "Sam Gyun Oh" <samoh21@gmail.com>, <sblim@sookmyung.ac.kr>, <speeno@haansoft.com>, <jungkwon@haansoft.com>, <sadian@ksa.or.kr>, <hykim@incube.co.kr>, <shik@kats.go.kr>, <mike@w3.org>, <ishida@w3.org>, <bert@w3.org>, <masao@w3.org>, "phobos chang" <phobos.chang@gmail.com>, "selena" <selena@cmex.org.tw>

From: "MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)" <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 4:50 PM
To: "H虧onWium Lie" <howcome@opera.com>
Cc: <www-style@w3.org>; "Jaeho Lee" <jaeho@uos.ac.kr>; "Ning Li" 
<ningli@public2.bta.net.cn>; <komachi@y-adagio.com>; "KOBAYASHI 
Tatsuo(FAMILY Given)" <tlk@kobysh.com>; "Seiichi Kato" 
<seiichik@microsoft.com>; "Masanori Kusunoki" 
<Masanori.Kusunoki@microsoft.com>; <yjkweon@keris.or.kr>; "Yong-Sang Cho" 
<zzosang@gmail.com>; "Sam Gyun Oh" <samoh21@gmail.com>; 
<sblim@sookmyung.ac.kr>; <speeno@haansoft.com>; <jungkwon@haansoft.com>; 
<sadian@ksa.or.kr>; <hykim@incube.co.kr>; <shik@kats.go.kr>; <mike@w3.org>; 
<ishida@w3.org>; <bert@w3.org>; <masao@w3.org>; "phobos chang" 
<phobos.chang@gmail.com>; "selena" <selena@cmex.org.tw>
Subject: Re: [css3-text-layout] Towards better support of CJK user 
requirements (was New editor's draft - margin-before/after/start/end etc)


>> In Alt 2, which introduces new pseduo-classes, one can write:
>>   :rtl { ... }
>>   :ltr { ... }
>>   :ttb { ... }
> In my understanding of the past discussions about pseudo classes,
> they are based on what is specified within documents.  Thus,
> it is not good enough.

Could you elaborate on this a bit more?

Say we have section that is defined as:

<div dir="ttb">

That by default is using something like:
   flow: horizontal; /* block flow is horizontal in ttb texts */

And now user will want to see that text in ltr direction and his/her UA
will choose user style sheet with something like this:

:root[forced-dir="ltr"]  *
   direction:ltr !important;
   flow: default !important; /* block flow is default - vertical */

What problems do you see with this?

Are you saying that you also need automatic transformations of
margin-left to margin-top in other words to use something like
margin-start?  That would make sense if all ideographs were strict
squares and also do computer screens. In any case with binocular vision
that human have got (so anisotropic by nature) our preferences to
horizontal and vertical margins are different.

Or is this all about strictly :ltr/:rtl differences?
I suspect that here are also some cultural differences that
require e.g. different preferences in margin widths.
In all UI cases that use same markup for LTR and RTL that I've seen so far
problem of mirroring margins is somewhere at the very last place of
list of all problems. For just texts default dir=rtl settings of HTML 
is enough in 90% cases. Personally I do not understand need of
whole bunch of margin-start & Co.  properties. So is my question above.

Andrew Fedoniouk

Received on Sunday, 30 May 2010 01:22:58 UTC

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