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[css3-text-layout] Towards better support of CJK user requirements (was New editor's draft - margin-before/after/start/end etc)

From: MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given) <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 22:46:08 +0900
To: <www-style@w3.org>
Cc: Jaeho Lee <jaeho@uos.ac.kr>, Ning Li <ningli@public2.bta.net.cn>, komachi@y-adagio.com, "KOBAYASHI Tatsuo(FAMILY Given)" <tlk@kobysh.com>, Seiichi Kato <seiichik@microsoft.com>, Masanori Kusunoki <Masanori.Kusunoki@microsoft.com>, yjkweon@keris.or.kr, Yong-Sang Cho <zzosang@gmail.com>, Sam Gyun Oh <samoh21@gmail.com>, sblim@sookmyung.ac.kr, speeno@haansoft.com, jungkwon@haansoft.com, sadian@ksa.or.kr, hykim@incube.co.kr, shik@kats.go.kr, Murata <eb2m-mrt@asahi-net.or.jp>, mike@w3.org, ishida@w3.org, bert@w3.org, masao@w3.org, phobos chang <phobos.chang@gmail.com>, selena <selena@cmex.org.tw>
Message-Id: <20100529224603.6BF2.B794FC04@asahi-net.or.jp>
Frankly, I am dissappointed to see recent arguments against
margin-before/after/start/end and so forth starting at
These properties were proposed for better support of 
vertical writing, and the CSS WG did agree to introduce them.

The solution proposed in the the recent argument very
obviously fails to satisfy Japanese user requirements (and 
probably CJK user requirements).  More about this, see 
2.5 in [1]. Discusssions not based on sound understanding 
of user requirements do not lead to useful results.  Note 
that requirement documents [1,2] are written in English 
and made publicly available.

EPUB may well fail in Japan (and probably in Taiwan) if the
support of vertical writing in CSS3 is not improved in a 
timely manner. In the Japanese side, we have been actively 
discussing in the HTML5 Japanese Interest Group as well as 
the EPUB study group of Japan Electronic Publishing Association, 
and Murakami-san is conveying the best part of such discussions 
to the CSS WG. I recently started to work together with 
CJK exeperts to jointly study CJK requirements on document 
processing, and attended the first CJK workshop in Seoul
this month.  I am ccing to those who are involved.  

I would request the CSS WG to carefully study user requirements
of CJK users. In the SC34/WG4 mailing list, Rick Jelliffe wrote:

>A group of European experts can reasonably be expected to be able to
>discuss whether so-called French Spacing should be supported as well as
>so-called English Spacing. They will have looked at enough authentic
>documents to have an idea of how it looks, the best way to support it,
>which kinds of publishing uses it, whether anyone cares, whether it is
>already supported by other means, and so on.
>But I think there are many CJK issues where, though the technical
>issues be arcane but graspable, the non-CJK NBs are not in a strong
>position to make any opposing statements about how important or
>desirable a feature is.
>Despite this, it is frequently the habit of us loud Westerners on
>standards bodies to take the attitude "Because you cannot prove you need
>it, we are not in a position to approve it." In effect it means that
>only things that are also found in Western typesetting are allowed, or
>the grossest or most jarring features only (LTR, ideographs, etc).

I would appreciate it very much if the CSS WG develop CSS3 in 
reply to CJK use requirements in a timely manner. To assist 
you guys, CJK is trying to provide more information on CJK 
user requirements. Stay tuned.

[1] http://www.jepa.or.jp/press_release/reqEPUBJ.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
[3] http://www.w3.org/html/ig/jp/
Received on Saturday, 29 May 2010 13:46:50 UTC

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