- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:58:06 -0700
- To: www-style@w3.org
Summary:
Reviewed status of LC specs:
- CSS3 Color has some editorial comments. Needs implementation reports
to go to PR.
- Selectors needs some changes in response to substantive issues
- 2007 Snapshot is waiting for Selectors
- CSS3 Paged Media will be republished as LC soonish
- Print Profile is waiting to be updated to match Paged Media
- CSS3 Fonts is in LC, technically, but is going back to WD
- Marquee also in LC
Discussed grammar of @page wrt @margin-box rules. Created CSS 2.1 Issue 71
in response.
RESOLVED: @rules inside declaration blocks are ignored if between declarations
(i.e. at the beginning of a declaration before the property),
invalid if within declarations. (CSS2.1 Issue 71)
====== Full minutes below. ======
Attendees:
David Baron
Arron Eicholz
Elika Etemad (scribe)
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman (chair)
Melinda Grant
Håkon Wium Lie
Peter Linss
Alex Mogilevsky
Saloni Mira Rai
David Singer
Jeffrey Wilson
Mohamed Zergaoui
Status of LC Specs
------------------
Peter: I wanted to track where we are on things that are in LC
Peter: Any comments, any progress on test suites
Peter: Status check to see what we need to do to move forward
Daniel: XSLFO has editorial comments on CSS3 Color
fantasai: We should let dbaron handle those, and only bring up comments
on the telecon if they require discussion. editorial comments
usually don't
Daniel: What else is in LC?
fantasai: Selectors
Daniel: Still a few changes to the document to make
Daniel: I still need to make those changes
ACTION Daniel make edits to Selectors
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work
fantasai: Snapshot is in LC, waiting for Selectors
fantasai: Paged Media is at LC, need to publish another LC
Daniel: Marquee
fantasai: CSS3 Fonts, but should go back to WD next
Daniel: Print Profile
Melinda: Needs to go back out, but waiting for Paged Media
Daniel: David, did you see editorial comments on css3-color?
David: LC period ended 2 days ago, so I'll try and gather them all up
David: Not sure I can do that for next week
ACTION dbaron Evaluate LC comments for css3-color due two weeks
Peter: Status of test suite?
David: Has test suite. Wrote impl report for FF on Linux. Need more
implementation reports
Other Topics
------------
Daniel: Next two items on agenda, we are missing the right people
* anne glazou, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0179.html
I can't make :/ I have guests coming over
CSS2.1 issues
-------------
fantasai: I haven't looked into them since the F2F, so I don't think
we have any open
Daniel: bolder/lighter issue?
fantasai: We closed it as undefined for CSS2.1 and deferred to CSS3
Daniel: Should we review mediaqueries issues without Anne?
<glazou> anne: postponed, we need you here
howcome: We should wait until he is here
Daniel: That doesn't leave much on the agenda for today.. we are done.
Daniel: Anything else?
dsinger: We'll have a new version of Animations and Transforms soon
dsinger: There's a discussion in HTML5 about accessibility of timed media
(audio/video), might affect this group.
dsigner: because Media Queries might be a good way to handle that
<glazou> sorry, me is muted, sneezing and sneezing
Daniel: Anything else?
Grammar for @margin-box rules inside @page
------------------------------------------
fantasai: Issue for Paged Media we could discuss
fantasai: It's a grammar issue
fantasai: The @page rule in CSS2.1 takes a declaration block
fantasai: In CSS3 it can also contain @rules
fantasai: In the grammar in css3-page it says you have to have a semicolon
at the end of the @rule
fantasai: that allows declarations after the @rule to be parsed and
recognized after the semicolon
Melinda: But several examples don't include that semicolon, and several
implementations don't require
Melinda: There are two proposals for fixing this
Melinda: First is to require semicolons after @blocks
Melinda: Second is to require all margin box statements to be after all
other declarations.
<dbaron> oops
<dbaron> The appendix G grammar or the ch 4 grammar?
fantasai: Either way we will need to allow an exception so that UAs that
parse and recognize @rules without semicolons are conforming
if their market requires this behavior, but such style sheets
are not valid CSS
fantasai: This market is mostly for printers, so browsers should be able
to parse strictly from the beginning
<fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors
<sylvaing> are they allowed in CSS2.1 ?
fantasai: Melinda says the DLNA test suite doesn't have semicolons, but
does place the @rules at the end of the @page rule.
fantasai: So I would recommend speccing that.
sylvaing, no they are not
<sylvaing> so a CSS3 stylesheet may not parse properly with a CSS2.1 UA
howcome, peter don't like requiring semicolons
<glazou> howcome does not like pushing nested @rules at the end either
Peter: do we have a problem with that currently in browsers? Do they drop
the declaration after the @page rule?
howcome: It's true that Opera swallows the declaration if it comes after.
Melinda: who raised this issue?
sylvaing(?): Microsoft, we noticed it and posted about it.
howcome: If we say the at-rules have to come after all declarations, then
we'd have to drop all the declarations after the at-page rule.
howcome: I think it makes sense to parse at-rules in declaration lists.
It's a key for extending CSS in the future.
peter: I think forward-compatible rules should always win, and anytime
you see an @keyword then you parse it as an @rule.
<dbaron> I agree with peter (line above).
Melinda: So we need to make the semicolon optional in CSS3 Page
dbaron: I don't think this is incompatible with the forward-compatible
grammar
Peter: I don't think we need to change the grammar, we need to change
the parsing rules for errors.
<fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-71
howcome: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#at-rules
fantasai: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#declaration
fantasai: The problem isn't where does the @rule end, it's does the @rule
end the declaration.
property: value; @key { ... } property2: value;
fantasai: The question isn't whether @key { ... } stays together, it's
whether it's considered part of the property2 declaration or not
peter: "User agents must ignore an invalid at-keyword together with
everything following it, up to and including the next semicolon
(;) or block ({...}), whichever comes first."
fantasai: If you take that, then
<fantasai> p { color: @key { ... } green; }
<dsinger> ow
<fantasai> If you take that rule like that, then in this rule my paragraph
is going to be green.
<fantasai> So.. I think we've just proven that there's a problem with this
spec :)
<glazou> really really ugly
fantasai: So we don't want to just parse and "ignore" the @rule.
peter: If it's in between declarations then we want to ignore it, if it's
within a declaration then we want to throw it out
fantasai: So someone needs to draft text for this.
fantasai: it's CSS2.1 Issue 71, which needs a better description
<sylvaing> invalid if value, ignored if declaration ?
<glazou> yes
Daniel: So who is going to draft that?
<glazou> Bert...
howcome: What's the resolution?
fantasai: So my summary would be, @rules inside declaration blocks are
ignored if between declarations (i.e. at the beginning of a
declaration before the property), invalid if within declarations.
fantasai: { property: value @rule; } /* invalid */
fantasai: { @rule {} property: value } /* ignored */
Melinda: that should apply only to @rules that are invalid inside declaration
blocks, not to valid ones
(in CSS2.1 all @rules inside declaration blocks are invalid, in CSS3 Page
@marginbox rules are valid inside @page's declaration block)
RESOLVED: @rules inside declaration blocks are ignored if between declarations
(i.e. at the beginning of a declaration before the property),
invalid if within declarations.
Daniel: Anything else?
TPAC F2F
--------
Daniel: One more administrative issue
Daniel: We need to start collecting items for agenda for TP
* MoZ announce that he will be there on sunday at least
<dsinger> I deeply regret that I'll miss the TP, but Dean Jackson (ex-w3c)
will be there
Daniel notes that there are other hotels within easy walking distance of
the sofitel
Daniel: Arcadia or something
<dsinger> I have stayed at a small hotel in walking, just on the canal,
can't remember its name
dbaron, fantasai usually stay at Hotel la Calanque
<fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/mandelieu-2008
<fantasai> Add topics
<Bert> Sorry, the other telcon was rather long.
<fantasai> hey Bert
<Bert> What did you assign to me in my absence?
<fantasai> we wanted to ask you to write a propsal for CSS2.1 issue 71
<fantasai> or proposed text rather
<dbaron> See http://www.mandelieu.com/accommodation/french-riviera-hotel/hotel-accommodation.html
for a list of hotels in the Mandelieu area
Received on Tuesday, 9 September 2008 01:58:46 UTC