- From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
- Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:04:36 -0700
- To: www-style@w3.org
Attendees:
David Baron
Bert Bos
Giorgi Chavchanidze
Arron Eicholz
Elika Etemad (co-scribe)
Ming Gao (co-scribe)
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman (chair)
Peter Linss
Alex Mogilevsky
Saloni Mira Rai
David Singer
Steve Zilles
Summary:
- Discussed charter and http://csswg.inkedblade.net/planning/charter-2008
- Media Queries has outstanding comments
- CSSWG to advocate separation of content and style and not using generated
content for actual document content
- Status update on CSS Variables and Selectors
- Discussed some CSS2.1 issues, no conclusion yet
Full minutes below.
===============================================================================
<Ming> scribenick: Ming
Update on new CSS charter
-------------------------
daniel: looked at wiki; agreement is by end of the week, it will be closed.
fantasai: two things outstanding, will ping the author
daniel: has integrated Bert's comments on CSS Variables into the wiki
daniel: won't stop working on a module, just if someone is against it
daniel: advocates should integrate comments to wiki if possible, but
we won't start another long discussion for that
<dsinger> there certainly should not be a presumption that we are in
agreement, in order to work on something...
bert: a general question: in addition to the integrating into wiki,
what about other comments
dbaron: what about the previous agreement on advocates on documents?
peter: I have that list, I'l integrat them into the wiki
daniel: talk to advocates about your comments
david s: working draft is where we need consensus, not at the charter
stage(?)
steve: have comments at both stages are appropriate?
daniel: yes.
daniel: maximum amount of info on the documents
steve: confused. thought we agree on shortening the deliverable list
and provide a catalog in the scope section
daniel: sorry, I mean the specifications
daniel: anyone to add to the charter now?
peter: interest group for the test suite, does that need to be documented
in the charter?
daniel: no
daniel: wiki is done, so the charter is to be resubmitted
steve: are we redefining the deliverable list?
peter: on the list, are those ready to move to Rec.
david s: need to have test suite to these deliverables. had some discussion
yesterday.
fantasai: what about things that could make to CR?
peter: will have them in scope section
fantasai: border work, etc; won't be able publish a working draft?
daniel: correct.
<Bert> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2008/proposed-charter.html
david s: not able to publishing working draft, is a circular problem. ie.
won't able to work on the specification without publishing drafts
fantasai: page media should be in the deliverable list; almost ready to
publish a last call
daniel: had discussed last week; won't able to extend too long; no problem
just adding one item, e.g. page media.
steve: what about Marquee, needed for Mobile Profile
steve: observing an issue working with OMA on Marquee
saloni: what is being dropped?
fantasai: everything except on the top list
steve: move page media up?
daniel: no objection; yes.
david s: need to inform the mobile group if they have a dependency on
marque(?)
Media Queries Disposition of Comments
-------------------------------------
<glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-mediaqueries/disposition.html
daniel: everyone get a chance to review the disposition (see the link)
steve: sent comments last Tuesday
David B: several issues: one of which is related to some changes there.
daniel: so the action item for anne or howcome.
<fantasai> dbaron and fantasai had substantive comments
steve/fantasai/bert: we have comments
steve: sent to anne, our comments?
david b: some of them will require discussion.
david b: ws is obvious, but the error handling would need discussion
daniel: need Anne in the next call.
CSS Variables Issues
--------------------
daniel: this is implemented in Safari.
daniel: need further improvement.
daniel: adding a new API to handle the issue
daniel: got a lot of feedbacks and enhancements
<fantasai> ScribeNick: fantasai
daniel: one issue is scope of variable definition
daniel: scoped to single style sheet? cross @import boundaries?
daniel: document-global?
daniel: working on a new editor's draft
daniel: we keep crossing @import boundaries
daniel: important for having e.g. a corporate style sheet with variables
for corporate colors
daniel: leaning towards document-global, still have to discuss it
fantasai's preference would be to cross @import, but not document-global
Steve: I understand the need for global variable settings, but that would
seem to be at the document level or @import..
Steve: I would be more concerned that style sheets further down the line
get unexpected variable definitions
Steve: standard modularization problems
daniel: still working on document, hyatt is implementing as he writes
(as always)
daniel: expect feedback on anything we do
Accessibility of Generated Content
----------------------------------
daniel: more and more websites use generated content to insert real
content in websites
daniel: e.g. wikipedia
daniel: all geolocation information in wikipedia is inserted using GC
daniel: it's a perversion of the system, it's not something we can forbid
daniel: but it deserves a nice warning in CSS2.1 spec to say that this is
bad practice
daniel: it also deserves let's say a blog entry about it
daniel: and if we can tell the Web Standards Project about
peter: why is it bad for accessibility?
daniel: because information is not in the document tree
fantasai: CSS is supposed to be optional
fantasai: for enhancement, not for content
fantasai: what if I load a page in Lynx? I'd miss half the content
daniel: separation of content and style
steve: you also might replace the style for accessibility reasons, which
would also make the content inaccessible
fantasai suggests Bert write the entry
ACTION: glazman get Bert and his accessibility friend in contact
ACTION: Bert write blog entry on generated content, accesibility, and
separation of content and style
Generated Content on <br>
-------------------------
daniel: the specification has an example of <br> being defiend as
br:before { content: '\A'; }
daniel: in fact the behavior of <br> is completely undefined in HTML,
so each implementation has a different interpretation of <br>
daniel: so GC on <br> is not predictable
daniel: for a text editor br:before { content: <paragrah symbol> } would
be extremely useful
daniel: it would make sense to define better the behavior of <br>
<dsinger> isn't line break what Unicode calls newline function
<http://unicode.org/reports/tr13/tr13-9.html>?
fantasai: I agree with bz, who suggested br { content: '\A' }
<dbaron> that doesn't solve Daniel's problem
<fantasai> br { content: 'P\A'; }
daniel: we should normalize interpretation of <br>
<dbaron> ok, right, but the author has to re-specify the part that's in
the UA style sheet
<fantasai> if :before isn't replaced by 'content' then it should work
<Saloni> br is treated as a replaced element correct? would the
definition br { content'\A'} be in line with this?
peter: I think inserting a line feed with GC is a hack
peter: I felt we should have a line-breaking property
Bert: we tried that. It didn't work with existing implementations
Bert: <br><br> creates two line breaks
Bert: could argue that <br><br> creating two line breaks was stupid,
but it was what Netscape did a long time ago
<dsinger> that is what two Unicode newlines do, though...
fantasai: I think it's a good to define at some point, but not going
to solve today
Selectors
---------
daniel: I have a few things to add to document, but I'm more concerned
about test suite
daniel: test suite is huge, lots of test in many contexts
daniel lists various cases
daniel: it's probably too long
daniel: I think it's trying to test everything in all cases, and we'll
never be able to do that
dbaron: we have implementation reports, we just need to update them to
the latest implementations
dbaron: I think it'll be much easier to fill them out and push them out
dbaron: than to redefine anything
dbaron: I believe I published an updated implementation report template
for the current test suite
daniel: If we can have implementation reports from Mozilla, Opera,
Microsoft, etc
daniel: that would help
dbaron: someone should dig up the template URL and send it around
<fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/20060307/implementreportTEMPLATE.html
daniel: once charter is done I should have more time to work on this
daniel: and I will fix the remaining items so this can move forward
<dbaron> I think it took me 1-2 hours to do an implementation report,
including going through all the versions of the tests.
<dbaron> It helps to have an implementation that preserves focus after
using the browser's "back" feature.
CSS3 Color
----------
ACTION: peter talk with HCG about publishing css3-color
CSS2.1
------
<fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-35 is open, but
needs time for discussion
<fantasai> http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-45 is open
<fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jun/0177.html
this is a request for clarification
dbaron: works for me
<dsinger> no opinion...sorry...
<glazou> no opinion is an opinion dsinger :)
ACTION everone get an opinion on proposal for issue 45 for next week
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-52
fantasai: question is should page-break-* apply to <br> ?
fantasai: page-break-before/after currently only apply to block-level
elements
everyone is bothered by <br> not behaving like a normal CSS element
<dsinger> apropos the BR discussion, Google found this: The global
structure of an HTML document
<dsinger> Generally, block-level elements begin on new lines, inline
elements do not. For information about white space, line breaks,
and block formatting, ...
fantasai: the only way to do this is to special-case the HTML <br> element
in CSS2.1
fantasai doesn't want to do this
alex: we already do that for 'clear'
dbaron: the HTML notion of inline vs block is different from the CSS notion
glazou: <br> is part of the inline group of elements in the DTD
glazman: should we have a joint discussion with HTMLWG about <br> at TPAC?
Bert, peter: don't see what they would have to say about it
Bert, peter: we're not discussing usage in markup
ACTION: peter add <br> to Cambridge F2F agenda
<dbaron> I'm not sure whether <br> is that critical an issue...
* fantasai agrees with dbaron
fantasai: Grammar and syntax people, please look at
http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css2.1#issue-51
Meeting closed.
Received on Wednesday, 2 July 2008 20:05:15 UTC