- From: Håkon Wium Lie <howcome@opera.com>
- Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:55:30 +0200
- To: www-tag@w3.org
- Cc: www-style@w3.org, w3c-css-wg@w3.org
Also sprach Norman Walsh: > In response to formattingProperties-19[1], I have published "TAG > Finding: Consistency of Formatting Property Names, Values, and > Semantics"[2]. The TAG invites public comment on this draft > finding. > [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/ilist#formattingProperties-19 > [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/formatting-properties.html The topic of discussion has a long history in W3C. Formatting was described in early HTML specifications, but it was generally agreed (although with much dissent) that HTML should remain a structural language and formatting should instead be described in style sheets. W3C published the CSS1 Recommendation in December 1996 [3] which described a set of formatting properties. The list of formatting properties was extended -- including aural formatting properties -- in May 1998 with the publication of the CSS2 Recommendation [4] At that point the XSL WG had been started and the issue of how to synchronize the two specifications was discussed. There were three main positions: 1) XSL is a separate specification and should be free to make its own choices on formatting 2) XSL and CSS should use the same property names, but they should be described in separate specifications. Coordination between the two working groups will ensure that the specification are synchronized. 3) Formatting properties should be described in one language-neutral specification and referred to by other specifications. Personally I favored option #3 and started work on a "W3C formatting model" [5]: This specification describes the W3C Formatting Model (W3C-FM). W3C-FM is a common formatting model for onto which all W3C Recommendations which expose formatting functionality are based. Currently, HTML4 and CSS2 expose part of the W3C-FM in their respective languages. Also, work in progress (e.g. XSL and SMIL) will be based on W3C-FM. W3C-FM is derived from W3C's CSS2 Recommendation and ISO's DSSSL Standard. However, the XSL WG chose option #2 and published their own list of properties in August 1998 [6][7]. Since then Steve Zilles has worked hard to synchronize XSL-FO and CSS by participating in both groups. With few exceptions (one is discussed below) the names of properties and values are the same across CSS and XSL-FO specifications. Steve is, however, rightfully concerned that order will not necessarily continue [8]: I have retired as a full time employee and contributor to the W3C. I am no longer able to perform the function which I had been performing. I strongly fear that without architectural affirmation of the principle of a common, shared set of formatting properties, that the second law of thermodynamics will quickly lead to a non-inter-operable set of formatting properties with independent islands of use. I agree with Steve's concerns, but not necessarily with the conclusion. I don't think an "architectural confirmation" is enough to keep specifications aligned. I don't think it is possible -- even with an architectural confirmation in place -- to describe formatting properties in two different specifications and have them mean exactly the same. The only solution that will ensure consistency is to describe formatting in one specification. In other words, I believe option #3 is still the correct answer to the problem. The TAG should not publish a "TAG Finding" on this. Rather, W3C should publish one language-neutral specification describing formatting and have other specifications point to it. Having just argued against [2], I also have one specific comment on its wording. I quote: "Furthermore, as XML vocabularies are now being combined in many ways, it is becoming more than merely beneficial, it is becoming imperative that a common set of properties and values be developed." I don't think XML should be mentioned. Using XML to describe presentation is still a controversial issue for some and the above statement opens a different discussion. Yet another specific comment comes is related to the discussions in the tag. I quote from [9]: NW: Have single set of semantic properties among css, xslt, svg, ... SZ noticed recently that CSS WG has decided to rename some properties first named by the XSL WG. SZ argues that renaming properties is a bad idea. I believe (but could be wrong) the above refers to the CSS WG's decision to include this property in CSS3: all-space-treatment: preserve | collapse XSL, on the other hand, has this property: white-space-collapse: true | false The reason for CSS not using the XSL property (for minutes, see [10]) is our long-standing architectural principle to not use true/false values since these leave little room for future extensions. (CSS is truly extensible :) There are no true/false values in CSS1/CSS2. To my knowledge, all other true/false values inherited from DSSSL have been removed from XSL and the remaining one was unintentional. I suggest fixing the error rather than using it as a case for architectural principles. [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1 [4] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2 [5] http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/1998/06/WD-W3C-FM.html [6] http://www.w3.org/Member/Newsletter/1998/0821#xslwd [7] http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/WD-xsl-19980818 [8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2002May/0042 [9[ http://www.w3.org/2002/05/20-tag-summary#formattingProperties [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2001OctDec/0260.html -h&kon Håkon Wium Lie cto °þe®ª howcome@opera.com http://people.opera.com/howcome
Received on Sunday, 7 July 2002 07:55:39 UTC