# RE: Is the meaning of order intrinsic ?

From: Emery, Pat <pemery@grci.com>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:35:48 -0400
Message-ID: <09A65DF294F8D311AAB000105A02DBAF36097D@thumper.va.grci.com>
To: "'Seth Russell'" <seth@robustai.net>, cg@cs.uah.edu, www-rdf-logic@w3.org
I think there may be an intrinsic order and a non-intrinsic order.
If I give a system three objects in a list and say that the list is in
order.
The system needs to preserve the positional order( if the system has a
concpet of an ordered list ).
To me the objects could be in spatial order, temporal order, alphabetcial
order, numeric order, order of importance, functional order( as in apply
function x to obtain the next ordered element ), a predfeined order, etc.

To put things in an order is to arrange them in a sequence.  A seuqence is a
function.  I think all that you need for an intrinsic or non-intrinsic
defintition of order is to be able to define a function.

Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Seth Russell [mailto:seth@robustai.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 12:08 PM
To: cg@cs.uah.edu; www-rdf-logic@w3.org
Subject: Is the meaning of order intrinsic ?

Is the meaning of order intrinsic ?

There are lots of marks in the world but none of them mean anything unless
some agent designates them as signs [1].  To express more complex concepts,
we designate meanings to ordered signs, and call it grammar.   But to be
able to do so, we must call upon this thing called order.   Yet order itself
seems not to need an act of designation to acquire its meaning.   Nor can I
find any way to designate an order to signs without just calling upon
properties of space .. that is without just marking things down in spatial
or temporal order {a  b c d .... }.

Can anyone define (designate) order itself without using order?   Has anyone
studied this?  Are there any URLs to their thoughts ?

You may ask why I care.  Well I wish to establish that order itself is
prior, axiomatic, innate, and never needs a definition.  This certainly is
true when it comes to humans.  We perhaps acquire our intuitions of order
(and therefore grammar) from our early experience of space and time.  An
open question is:  Is order itself also axiomatic to our logic systems and
our machines?

[1] http://www.bestweb.net/~sowa/peirce/ontometa.htm

Seth Russell
Received on Thursday, 24 May 2001 13:39:16 UTC

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