Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 6 Nov, 2025

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bert Bos

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-regrets>Regrets

   - Paul Libbrech
   - Moritz Schubotz

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-action-items>Action Items
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-545-545-exclusive-properties-a->3.
#545: exclusive properties <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/545>

*ACTION:* DC and NS agrees to add another field to the properties YAML to
classify the "something" class that each property is in. Properties in the
same class are "exclusive" and overwrite each other if both are specified.
DC will modify YAML
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-agenda>Agenda
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

Firefox nightly added MathML to its PDF output, although it is buggy:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1998046
2. #546: Table of suggested speech to be included in spec
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/546> (anything more to be said?)

DC: Yaml of the speech list has been simplified and existing texts marked
with en:I not t: to allow localization. Texts for Spanish, German and
Vietnamese extracted from MathCAT and added (only the simple cases that did
not involve tests/branching so far). New language switcher added (using the
same code as the concept lists)
https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/unicode-speech/
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-545-545-exclusive-properties-a->3.
#545: exclusive properties <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/545>

NS: There are groups that are exclusive. If something is set, it overrides
everything else. If something is defined as being a roman numeral, it
cannot be anything else.

*ACTION:* DC and NS agree to add another field to the properties YAML to
classify the "something" class that each property is in. Properties in the
same class are "exclusive" and overwrite each other if both are specified.
DC will modify YAML
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-4-other-issues->4. Other issues?

DC and NS reviewed the open issues.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-zoom-meeting-summary-11-06-2025>Zoom Meeting
Summary 11/06/2025 <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-quick-recap>Quick recap

David shared progress on his work involving YAML structure simplification
for suggested speech and the Unicode speech page, including discussions
about language support and data extraction from MathCAT sources. The team
also explored the concept of exclusive properties in their system and
discussed property interactions, while reviewing and closing several issues
and planning upcoming tasks.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-next-steps>Next steps

   - David: Contact the person working on Firefox Nightly to clean up the
   code outside of Bugzilla
   - David: Try to do the malign specification updates
   - David: Add a field to the YAML to mark properties by class
   - David: Make a PR for nested math changes
   - Neil: Submit a PR for changing space-like elements for mtext
   - Neil: Look at the bug regarding character accents
   - Neil: Ping Deyan to remind him about the open issue on ASCII case
   sensitivity
   - Neil: Try to tackle the Mmstyle specification update
   - David: Review and merge Neil's time and date PR in MathML docs

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-summary>Summary
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-bug-tracking-and-specification-updates>Bug
Tracking and Specification Updates

The team discussed ongoing issues with bug tracking systems, comparing
GitHub's superiority to Bugzilla and Nats. Neil announced that Firefox
Nightly updates were delayed but eventually fixed, and highlighted the need
for specification updates, particularly for malign-related items. David
mentioned he had submitted a pull request for changing space-like elements
in mtext, noting that current browser implementations differ from the core
specification. The team also discussed David's work on simplifying the YAML
structure for suggested speech, which now includes additional language
support.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-multilingual-speech-data-automation>Multilingual
Speech Data Automation

David has automated the extraction of speech data from MathCAT sources for
multiple languages, with the exception of complex test cases which require
manual handling. The Unicode speech page now includes columns for English,
French, German, Spanish, and Vietnamese translations, though some entries
still need verification for accuracy. The team discussed the large number
of entries in the table, with Neil noting that while only about 10
characters have literal names, the rest have semantic or descriptive names.
David explained that he simplified the YAML structure for characters like
Blackmore Bold by using a percent sign as a placeholder to maintain
consistency while allowing for word order changes.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-yaml-simplification-for-language-translations>YAML
Simplification for Language Translations

David and Neil discussed the simplification of a YAML file for language
translation, noting that not every language needs to be included. They
addressed issues with German capitalization and agreed on a solution for
representing the German double S character in ASCII math for braille
generation. David mentioned potential improvements to a script for
extracting data from MathCAT, but decided to postpone this task. They also
briefly touched on the localization of the file for political reasons and
Paul's suggestion to make the file more normative, possibly through a pull
request.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-defining-exclusive-properties-in-system>Defining
Exclusive Properties in System

The team discussed the concept of exclusive properties in their system,
focusing on how certain attributes cannot be simultaneously applied to an
entity. Neil explained that properties like infix and postfix operators are
mutually exclusive, while others like chemical elements and Roman numerals
are inherently exclusive due to their distinct definitions. David noted
that while the exclusivity is implicitly understood, it is not explicitly
defined in their documentation. The group agreed that a clearer way to
define and communicate these exclusions is needed, potentially by
distinguishing between mutually exclusive groups and properties that
override all others.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-reading-style-property-rules-discussion>Reading
Style Property Rules Discussion

David and Neil discussed the properties and rules for reading styles,
focusing on how different properties like fixity, pause, and others
interact and override each other. They agreed that these properties should
be explicitly marked to avoid confusion, and David suggested adding a new
field in the YAML to categorize properties into classes. David also
mentioned updating the minutes to reflect this decision.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-class-behavior-and-pr-updates>Class Behavior
and PR Updates

David and Neil discussed the issue of overlapping classes and agreed to
specify class behavior to prevent overwrites. They also reviewed the status
of various issues and PRs, noting that some updates to the specification
might be needed. The team acknowledged progress on their tasks and prepared
for the CR review.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-mathml-and-malign-issue-review>MathML and
Malign Issue Review

David and Neil reviewed several issues and agreed to close some, including
a spec update about malign. David mentioned he would work on the MathML
character case sensitivity and mstyle updates. Neil planned to tackle the
mtext issue and ping Deyan about an open bug. They also discussed David's
new computer setup and the upcoming Thanksgiving holiday affecting
attendance.