Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 8 Aug, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Patrick Ion

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

issue 1: Simplification of the mstyle element
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/1>

NS: Too complicated to resolve this one during the meeting.

issue 3: Removal of the menclose notation
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/3>

NS: Closed as completed.

issue 27: Remove/Deprecate subscriptshift/superscriptshift attributes of
msubsup/msup/msub <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/27>

NS: Needs to add a polyfill. Does not need a spec update. Needs tests.

issue 29: Remove/Deprecate mfrac@bevelled
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/29>

DC: Closed as completed.

issue 30: Remove/Deprecate numalign/denomalign/align attributes
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/30>

DC: Will be kept in full and not in core, so closing as completed.

issue 66: Suggested change to description of merror layout in core spec
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/66>

DC: Closing as no change needed.

issue 103: Extend mpadded attribute syntax to be closer to MathML3
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/103>

We did not close issue 103.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

   - Differentiation concept names/properties No updates.

NS recently spoke at the International Conference on Computers Helping
People with Special Needs – ICCHP 2024 <https://icchp.org/> on how to make
mathematics accessible to the blind. About 20 to 30 people came to his talk.

NS: The session chair asked if we had done user testing of the MathML
standard.

PL: We should consider testing. We should have at least one implementation
we can test.

NS: This does not test the standard.

BM: It's always been a dream of mine to have some sort of grandiose
semantic macro infrastructure and libraries that people could build in
accessibility.

NS: I believe that Archive is planning to use your (BM's) software.

NS: Is there any way you can ask authors to take advantage of your package?

BM: I could try that.

BM: There is a tendency for people to use the methods they know.

DC: The Archive process is extremely late in the paper writing process.
People just want to paper to get through the archive process.

From David Carlisle to everyone:
https://latex3.github.io/tagging-project/tagging-status/full This is the
LaTeX Tagging Project.

BM: We need a well thought out system that is as simple as possible that
people will use.

NS: Like the chemistry packages because they simplify chemistry so much
that people use them.

NS: David Farmer's SpaceMath is designed from the beginning to generate the
proper stuff.

NS: I asked Volker Sorge at ICCHP how willing are the authors to make
things accessible with PreTeXt because he gave a talk on an accessible
textbook from PreText. Volker said that the authors may not be too willing
to do this.

BM: If you have a captive audience, or a legal requirement, people may be
willing to make things accessible.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-2-taking-stock-of-where-we-are-at->2.
Taking stock of where we are at:
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-61-open-issues>61
open issues

   - 16 with intent label
   - 14 with need spec update label
   - 24 with MathML label
   - Note: some have multiple labels

Let us consider the issues that have the need spec update label.

issue 1: Simplification of the mstyle element
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/1>

NS: Is the spec up to date with what core does?

NS: What would be the difference if you put a style on mrow versus an
Mstyle element?

NS: We cannot resolve this one.

issue 3: Removal of the menclose notation
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/3>

DC: Removed the need specification update label.

NS: In polyfill at mathml-polyfills/
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-polyfills/tree/main>menclose
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-polyfills/blob/main/menclose/menclose.js>

NS: Closed as completed.

issue 27: Remove/Deprecate subscriptshift/superscriptshift attributes of
msubsup/msup/msub <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/27>

DC removed the needs specification label.

NS: Needs to add a polyfill. Does not need a spec update. Needs polyfill
and tests.

issue 29: Remove/Deprecate mfrac@bevelled
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/29>

There is a polyfill. Do not need a spec update. Do not have tests for
MathML 4.

DC: Closing as bevelled will be kept in full (and dropped in core.

DC: Closed as completed.

issue 30: Remove/Deprecate numalign/denomalign/align attributes
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/30>

DC: Will be kept in full and not in core, so closing as completed.

issue 66: Suggested change to description of merror layout in core spec
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/66>

DC: Closing as no change was needed.

issue 103: Extend mpadded attribute syntax to be closer to MathML3
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/103>

DC: Removed the need polyfill label because NS wrote a polyfill for issue
103.

The feature is needed, but it is difficult to implement.

We did not close issue 103.

NS: We will look at more issues for the next meeting.

NS: People can look at more issues before the next meeting, and they can
offer suggestions as to the disposition of the issues.