[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2021-04-22


  – DRAFT –
            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

22 April 2021

    [2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.

       [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Apr/0009.html
       [3] https://www.w3.org/2021/04/22-i18n-irc


           Addison, Atsushi, Felix, Fuqiao, Richard

           JcK, john

           Addison Phillips



     1. [4]Agenda
     2. [5]Action Items
     3. [6]Info Share
     4. [7]RADAR and Active Work Review
     5. [8]Scribing
     6. [9]Specdev error message text
     7. [10]epub encoding
     8. [11]Page Numbering
     9. [12]Shadow DOM
    10. [13]AOB?
    11. [14]Summary of action items

Meeting minutes

    <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

    <addison> @Bert: see above


    addison: added page numbering and pull request about spec dev

    xfq: encoding in epub

   Action Items

    <addison> [15]https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/

      [15] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    r12a: bidi keywords not yet

    <addison> action-989?

    <trackbot> [16]action-989: Addison Phillips to Check tus and if
    necessary ping unicode folks about d145 normalization case fold
    ordering questions -- due 2021-01-21 -- OPEN

      [16] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/989

    addison: next utc meeting is coming up, hope to discuss the
    topic via that channel

    <addison> action-996?

    <trackbot> [17]action-996: Addison Phillips to Follow up with
    mark davis on liaison status and google participation -- due
    2021-02-25 -- OPEN

      [17] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/996

    <addison> close action-996

    <trackbot> Closed action-996.

    addison: 996 is stale

    <addison> action-1015?

    <trackbot> [18]action-1015: Addison Phillips to Harvest useful
    text from geolocation 50 for specdev -- due 2021-04-15 -- OPEN

      [18] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1015

    addison: done

    <addison> close action-1015

    <trackbot> Closed action-1015.

    <addison> action-1016?

    <trackbot> [19]action-1016: Richard Ishida to Fix stylesheets
    using logical properties etc. -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN

      [19] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1016

    r12a: done

    <addison> close action-1016

    <trackbot> Closed action-1016.

    r12a: one thing I did not change: "margin" and "for" values

    r12a: detailed logical properties work
    … what does not work: margin with two or four values
    … changing that in the stylesheet would mean: create four lines
    instead of one
    … it would not break anything, but in our stylesheets we would
    have four lines

    addison: changing the shorthand from physical to logical

    r12a: that is the problem, still being discussed in CSS
    … that is the outstanding item about logical properties

    <xfq> [20]https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1282

      [20] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1282

    r12a: apart from shorthands and float and clear, all has been
    … looked also at the way we handle language and fonts
    … you will see a big difference of how we handle fonts now in
    our articles
    … I went through all fonts we are using in our articles
    … made a checklist what languages they support
    … then developed fallback strategies
    … stylesheets now say: use railway for ..., then for language
    ... another font
    … if you have some ideas how to improve this, let me know


    <trackbot> [21]action-1017: Addison Phillips to Send wpwg list
    of specs that implement lang/dir -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN

      [21] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1017

    addison: pending

    <addison> action-1018?

    <trackbot> [22]action-1018: Addison Phillips to Establish
    rotating scribe list and add it to the agenda -- due 2021-04-22
    -- OPEN

      [22] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1018

    addison: done

    <addison> close action-1018

    <trackbot> Closed action-1018.

   Info Share

    <r12a-again> [23]https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/

      [23] https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-html-dir.en

    r12a: rewrite of article on structural markup and rtl text
    … previous version had a lot of stuff saying "there is this new
    stuff ..."
    … now many of these things just work
    … new article does not mention things like "problem with IE"
    etc. anymore
    … added section on how to work with forms
    … still work in progress, if you have feeback, let me know
    … article also implements the new look and feel
    … article has a related article about inline markp and bidi

    <addison> [24]https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/

      [24] https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/questions/qa-html-dir.en

    <r12a-again> [25]https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/

      [25] https://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/inline-bidi-markup/index.en.html

    r12a: this is a quite long article, have shortened it a lot
    … many parts are worked examples, put the stuff into a separate
    … no uploaded version yet, will show that in due course
    … hopening that we have a much more concise explanation how to
    work with bidi

    felix: great timing for me to use this in my i18n lecture

    r12a: will upload the inline doc soon and let you know

   RADAR and Active Work Review

    <addison> [26]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

      [26] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

    addison: no new requests, it seems

    r12a to work on logical properties


    addison: established rotation in agenda
    … any objection in being included in rotation? John already did

    r12a: objecting too, for various reasons
    … but I understand that this makes the scribe list much smaller
    … doing recording and then editing minutes would be too time

    addison: so we do a rotation, or is there anybody who would do
    this more regular?
    … so I will reduce rotation to people who are willing to scribe

    addison: anything people want to discuss on webpayments this

    nothing it seems

   Specdev error message text

    <addison> [27]https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/55

      [27] https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/55

    addison: included stuff I got from geolocation
    … moved existing text round a bit, comments welcome

    <addison> [28]https://aphillips.github.io/

      [28] https://aphillips.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#localization

    addison: please provide comments now or to the PR

    r12a: still not sure about our term "natural language"
    … should change it to "human readable text" or "user directed
    … or "@@@ oriented"

    addison: you are talking about use of "natural language" in
    sec. 9.6 and 9.6.1?

    r12a: yes

    addison: didn't we have a defintion in charmod?

    r12a: yes, but now we have a clearer understanding about the

    <addison> [29]http://aphillips.github.io/

      [29] http://aphillips.github.io/charmod-norm/#terminology

    r12a: the label "natural language" does not quite describe the
    aspect we mean

    addison: do we need to revise terminology in charmod?

    r12a: I think so

    addison: do we pull that into spec dev?

    r12a: could do

    felix: ltli also has a definition of "natural language"

    <addison> [30]https://w3c.github.io/ltli/#language-terminology

      [30] https://w3c.github.io/ltli/#language-terminology

    addison: that definition is much closer to what richard is
    talking about
    … that is the BCP 47 definition

    r12a: another reason for changing charmod, because it conflicts
    with the definition in LTLI

    addison: todos: fix terminology in spec dev, examine charmod &
    do edits, ensure that specdev itself is consistent, and look at
    string meta

    Action: addison to fix terminology on natural language in spec

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1019 - Fix terminology on natural
    language in spec dev [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-04-29].

    Action: addison to examine charmod related to natural language
    & do edits

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1020 - Examine charmod related to
    natural language & do edits [on Addison Phillips - due

    Action: addison to ensupre that specdev itself is consistent
    with regards to natural language

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1021 - Ensupre that specdev itself is
    consistent with regards to natural language [on Addison
    Phillips - due 2021-04-29].

    Action: richard to look at string meta

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1022 - Look at string meta [on
    Richard Ishida - due 2021-04-29].

   epub encoding

    <xfq_> [31]https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1628

      [31] https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1628

    xfq: they mention css files and also xml files and media type
    that must be utf-8 or utf-16
    … I asked "why do you mention utf-16?"
    … they did not find the reason, has been in the spec for a long
    … they are concerned now about compatibility
    … I proposed to add that utf-16 is deprecated, but still
    allowed for CSS and XML
    … for the media type, it is still utf-8 / utf-16

    addison: that can be resolved with MUST and SHOULD

    xfq: eBook publishers are very concerned if their book is valid

    addison: sure. we could say: it MUST be in one of the two, and
    it SHOULD be utf-8

    discussion of what is stronger: "deprecated" or "SHOULD"

    addison: OK with "deprecated"

    xfq: fine by me too


    <atsushi> +1

    r12a: ok
    … xfq, will you let them know that we are ok with their

    xfq: sure

   Page Numbering

    <addison> [32]https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1505

      [32] https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1505

    addison: made comments, r12a was involved in discussion too

    r12a: do they need an ID for each page, so that they can point
    to it?

    addison: yes

    r12a: problem is how to point to a page if there are e.g. "two
    page 3"? Which digit you used?

    addison: real page number in physical manifestation opposed to
    pages changing based on screen size etc.

    r12a: look at page xyz means = you need to use the same type of

    addison: yes, and there are various schemes to number pages
    … you cannot use them together in the same book
    … question is: does that include native digits? yes

    addison: can the numbers be non ascii digits? sure
    … there are many other schemes you can use for numbering

    r12a: need to read this in more detail
    … I worry that they do not take into account section based
    … and that the same number is used several times in the
    … because the fragment IDs need to be unique

    addison: they need to figure out a scheme to make the strings

    r12a: they have a fragment id and the content of the element,
    which they would show the user
    … question is how to generate a fragment id from what they show
    to the user, if that is what they are doing?

    addison: on some level the tokens do not matter, they are just
    … they will be case sensitve, because upper and lower case page
    numbering schemes exist
    … charmod norm provides guidance on how to make the tokens

    suggestion to carry on the discussion in the issue

   Shadow DOM

    Action: addison: ping fantasai about shadow dom

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-1023 - Ping fantasai about shadow dom
    [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-04-29].


Summary of action items

     1. [33]addison to fix terminology on natural language in spec
     2. [34]addison to examine charmod related to natural language
        & do edits
     3. [35]addison to ensupre that specdev itself is consistent
        with regards to natural language
     4. [36]richard to look at string meta
     5. [37]addison: ping fantasai about shadow dom

Received on Monday, 26 April 2021 09:06:58 UTC