[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2020-03-12


text version follows:


            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

12 Mar 2020




           addison, xfq, atsushi, r12a, Bert, JcK


           Addison Phillips

           addison, Bert


      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Agenda and Minutes
          2. [5]Action Items
          3. [6]Info Share
          4. [7]RADAR Review
          5. [8]CSS Issue 4497 (limiting local fonts)
          6. [9]Specdev PR related to locale based formats
          7. [10]AOB?
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      * [12]Summary of Resolutions

    <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

    <agendabot> clear agenda

    <addison> scribenick: addison

Agenda and Minutes

Action Items


      [13] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open


    <trackbot> action-856 -- Richard Ishida to Check the time
    planner in the meeting page to ensure it is correct for 2020 --
    due 2020-02-27 -- OPEN


      [14] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/856

    close action-856

    <trackbot> Closed action-856.


    <trackbot> action-862 -- Addison Phillips to Chase down the
    missing review request -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN


      [15] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/862

    close action-862

    <trackbot> Closed action-862.


    <trackbot> action-863 -- Fuqiao Xue to Liaise with atsushi to
    come up with list of items to review/triage in teleconference
    -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN


      [16] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/863

    close action-863

    <trackbot> Closed action-863.


    <trackbot> action-864 -- Richard Ishida to Review prs on
    string-meta -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN


      [17] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/864


    <trackbot> action-865 -- Richard Ishida to Fix page at
    _etc wrt which edge is being reported -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN

      [18] https://w3c.github.io/i18n-tests/results/bidi-algorithm#rli_etc


      [19] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/865

    close action-865

    <trackbot> Closed action-865.


    <trackbot> action-866 -- Addison Phillips to After richard
    fixes test page, open an issue against webkit regarding support
    for isolating controls -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN


      [20] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/866

    close action-866

    <trackbot> Closed action-866.

    <scribe> ACTION: richard: think about how to track bugs
    reported against products such as browsers

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-868 - Think about how to track bugs
    reported against products such as browsers [on Richard Ishida -
    due 2020-03-19].


    <trackbot> action-867 -- Addison Phillips to Remind group to
    read css 4497 for next week -- due 2020-03-12 -- OPEN


      [21] https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/867

    close action-867

    <trackbot> Closed action-867.

Info Share

    richard: unicode released v13.0
    ... if you use uniview, that's already up to date

    <xfq> re browser bugs, there's a
    [22]https://github.com/w3c/i18n-issues/issues repo too

      [22] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-issues/issues

RADAR Review


      [23] https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

CSS Issue 4497 (limiting local fonts)


      [24] https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4497

    <Bert> scribenick: Bert

    jck: what the dialog box should be like. Single question, do
    you want to install these minority fonts.

    r12a: New approach to fonts, really need to serve webfonts all
    the time. Fonts downloaded with the page all the time.
    ... I used Dreamweaver recently. It doesn't show webfonts.
    ... Shift in how to handle fonts, towards webfonts.

    addison: Minority languages issue. Not everybody can host a
    webfont for their page.

    r12a: Most people probably can, but it is not easy.

    addison: Often goes together with other things, like installing
    a keyboard for the language.

    <xfq> like "a custom setting, that shows users the fonts the
    browser knows about on disk that are not OS-provided fonts, and
    users can opt those in to the set of fonts sites can access" in
    the last comment

    addison: Is there anything we need to push, then?

    r12a: If we are moving to webfonts, the CSS WG needs to do more

    xfq: Last proposal on the issue is to include an opt-in for

    addison: If a web page has a long list of fonts, you don't want
    to have a dialog box pop up for every one.
    ... We don't have to design the mechanism, but there should be
    a way for a page to use a local font. Maybe it doesn;t work
    unless th euser does something special.
    ... R12a, will you write our reply?

    r12a: It should not just be *my* response.
    ... Useful if more WG members participate first.

    <addison> ACTION: addison: write a "sense of the i18n WG"
    comment on css 4497

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-869 - Write a "sense of the i18n wg"
    comment on css 4497 [on Addison Phillips - due 2020-03-19].

    JcK: Wondering about diff. between support for certain
    characters and support for a specific font. Not the same thing,

    addison: In the bad old days, you used font encodings. Which we
    as a WG hated.

    JcK: [some noise on the line]
    ... Is fonts all we're talking about?

    r12a: Fonts is the issue here, because of issues of
    ... If people have to OK each local font, then fingerprinting
    won't work, will it?
    ... The fingerprinting relies on quickly trying a hundred

    addison: But it would be really annoying if the user were asked
    for every site again.

    r12a: You'd recognize that a page was doing fingerprinting.

    addison: Browser makers have to come up with something usable
    for their users. But in the end minority languages should still
    be possible. Some font encoding.

    r12a: Not really font encoding. But a font.

    addison: So anything else we want to resolve?
    ... I think relying only on webfonts is the wrong solution for
    minority languages.

    JcK: Need to provide a way to get to the fonts people need. But
    it should be a nice way.
    ... Maybe that is what can say: Need a good way for users of
    minority languages to get to their fonts.

    r12a: Also look out for what Henri is really saying in the
    issue. He says you really only need one system font. Which is
    not true.

    addison: Right, Noto is not the answer.

Specdev PR related to locale based formats

    <addison> [25]https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/40

      [25] https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/40

    addison: I made a pull request on specdev ^^^
    ... Amazon question on locale-neutral.
    ... I thought we had documentation on that, but we don't.

    r12a: specdev needs to have a list of does and donts

    <addison> www.org/TR/ltli

    addison: LTLI has some definitions and other things, but it
    needs work.
    ... r12a, do you want to review my wording?
    ... I added at least a place to add the does and donts.

    r12a: But then we need to add them...
    ... What is a "local-neutral serialization form"?

    addison: Think of XML Schema. Can use that to exchange dates
    and times.
    ... Difficult to extract values back out of localized forms.

    JcK: Can you make a note that is a bit more explicit? I worked
    a lot on data formats.
    ... Not always clear that it is really locale-neutral.
    ... Tell me more exactly what you're thinking and I'll tell you
    what I think about it.
    ... There's a whole can of worms behind it.

    addison: We've mostly been succesful. Today we're working more
    on localization, such as direction in JSON-LD.
    ... I spend a lot of time education people at Amazon. Whether
    to compute presentation language upstream or downstream...
    ... I'm looking for a writeup of the basics.
    ... Not more. You could write a book about it.

    JcK: Goal is reasonable. But here is an example:
    ... Composition, people have strong opinions on what is
    ... My guess is that Amazon, being in the grocery business, has
    the same.
    ... We should also think about what's our scope.

    addison: Let me think about a scope statement.

    <addison> ACTION: addison: write scope statement for
    locale-related work

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-870 - Write scope statement for
    locale-related work [on Addison Phillips - due 2020-03-19].

    addison: [...] BCP47 and "Unicode locale".
    ... Please look at my response to the Personalization Semantics



    r12a: We should talk about how to respond. Maybe make multiple

    addison: Mostly they didn't grok the jargon.


    addison: Please look at the list of issues proposed for closing
    before next week's telcon.

    r12a: Can make comments in the tracker issue rather than in

    The list of issues is long. How to process them efficiently?

    atsushi: Most issues are easier to close.
    ... Discuss by email?

    r12a: Best to put comments in the tracker issue, so we keep a
    record in case we need to go back.


Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison: write a "sense of the i18n WG" comment
    on css 4497
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: write scope statement for locale-related
    [NEW] ACTION: richard: think about how to track bugs reported
    against products such as browsers

Summary of Resolutions

    [End of minutes]

Received on Thursday, 12 March 2020 16:19:36 UTC