- From: r12a <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 16:31:55 +0100
- To: www International <www-international@w3.org>
https://www.w3.org/2019/05/09-i18n-minutes.html
text extract follows:
- DRAFT -
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
09 May 2019
[2]Agenda
[2]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2019May/0005.html
Attendees
Present
atsushi, addison, r12a, Katy, JcK, Bert, Jeff_, xfq,
kaz, Matthias, Sebastian, McCool, Taki
Regrets
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
addison, Bert
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Agenda and Minutes
2. [5]WoT Review
* [6]Summary of Action Items
* [7]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
<agendabot> clear agenda
<addison> scribenick: addison
<Bert> scribenick: Bert
Agenda and Minutes
WoT Review
r12a: Extra agenda item: document I sent.
MichaelM: Unissued doc describes architecture. Has not enough
i18n.
Kaz: We talked about that in prev meeting already.
<addison> addison: notes that we didn't review the architecture
document
McCool__: data format with readable string, has language, but
not direction.
... We derive the direction from the language.
... json-ld should solve this, we think.
... default language sets direction.
... "title" and "description" appear in multiple places.
... They can have multiple strings each with a lang tag.
... When retrieviing a thing description, might do HTTP
negotiation.
... Allows for richer environment. Also need to markup default
lang.
... Issue with lang nego is that you may end up with diff. lang
than what support tag provides.
... So we decided that the support tag should always be a URI.
... We decided to use "title" instead of "name" and thus use
the title mechanism.
addison: We read the spec and saw your responses to our
comments.
... Maybe some nuances and some comments.
... I just submitted a list of comments on date/time.
<Zakim> r12a, you wanted to discuss 3 comments related to bidi
addison: Today lets discuss open issues.
r12a: First of all, thanks for the excellent self-review!
... The way you describe how to get to bidi info does not
include first-strong heuristics.
<addison>
[8]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/643
[8] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/643
r12a: I think that should be the first heuristics.
McCool__: The strong-first is reasonable when there is a human
to fix it if the heuristic fails.
... Not so much between machines.
addison: You send the string to something with the capacity to
display it.
McCool__: It may be just be a thermostat that displays a
string.
addison: If it has the capacity to display bidi, it will be
able to do the heuristic.
<addison> [9]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
[9] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
r12a: You say there is a place to specify the default language.
But you don't say there *must* be a default.
<taki> [10]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
[10] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
McCool__: We can add first-strong as an allowed first
heuristic.
... We can say it can be applied in absence of lang info.
<taki> [11]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
[11] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
Taki: first-strong is already mentioned in the spec.
<McCool__> [12]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/
[12] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/
taki: The big table.
addison: the table and the green box.
McCool__: Should we say first-strong should be used?
addison: yes.
McCool__: Is there an issue open for that already?
addison: your issue 643
<addison>
[13]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635
[13] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635
[looking at the issue on McCool__'s screen]
text in bullet list needs updating.
r12a: second issue is when you have, say an arabic string that
starts with html code. You'd have to label it as english to get
the code to display, but actually it is arabic...
addison: why as english? you want rtl, don't you?
r12a: you might be right...
... In such a situation, the lang might be there. But if the
text comes form a user filling a form, it may not.
... If the string can be edited, e.g.
addison: The cldr sub tags are meant to address it.
r12a: I think that is in the spec somewhere.
<taki>
[14]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#titles-descrip
tions-serialization-json
[14]
https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#titles-descriptions-serialization-json
McCool__: [looking through spec]
<addison>
[15]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
[15] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing
addison: section 6.3.2
McCool__: "default language... must include sub-tag..."
addison: People read these specs naively. Have no context.
Better to point and not overspecify.
... Don't want people to write en-lat when there is really no
need for subtags.
<addison>
[16]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635
[16] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635
r12a: It already says? "... *if* a lang can be written in more
than one script".
addison: see my suggested text in ^^
<addison> TD Processors should be aware of certain special
cases when processing bidirectional text. They should take care
to use bidi isolation when presenting strings to users,
particularly when embedding in surrounding text. Mixed
direction text can occur in any language, even when the
language is properly identified. TD producers should attempt to
provide mixed direction strings in a way that can be displayed
successfully by a naive user agent. For exa[CUT]
r12a: Other possible way is to just say json-ld hasn't solved
it, we can't solve it at the moment.
McCool__: We may run into issues. Spec usage is one or two
years out.
r12a: If you worry about first-strong algo in small devices,
there is quite a lot more processing involved in detecting base
direction from language tags.
... Can mark it "at risk" as well, then you can pull it later.
addison: It is a recommendation for consumers: "you should...".
That's good enough.
McCool__: We'll try to word it with two shoulds and try to
avoid conflicts.
addison: Use lang info first, use first-strong in its absence.
r12a: In other words, you do first-strong unless you have more
info, such as language info.
McCool__: We'll need to work on the "must" and "should".
addison: You can even use "may". You "should" use strong-first
in the absence of lang info. You "may" use... etc.
<addison>
[17]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635#iss
uecomment-490545550
[17]
https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635#issuecomment-490545550
McCool__: We should still mention the cldr sub tag, but soften
the language to "may".
<r12a> “In particular, producers of TDs should avoid numbers
with embedded spaces in bidirectional text. Strings starting
with embedded text using a script with a writing direction
opposite to that of the base direction (for example, English
words embedded in Arabic text) or with multidigit numbers
should be avoided if possible.”
r12a: third isssue:
... [looking for link]
addison: I proposed text should be removed altogether.
r12a: The data needs to be what the data is, that’s why you
have the other mechanisms described above. Rather than ‘avoid
if possible’ say ‘use the directional override mechanism
described above”.
addison: Don't want to tell people not to use bidi.
... We want people to exchange their actual text, not avoid it.
r12a: Don't say constrain your data, but do say watch out and
use appropriate technology.
<JcK> For whatever it is worth, I've got the page display at
full screen, at 150% magnification, on a 26 inch monitor. It
may be merely a sign of my advanced age (in which case this is
an accessibility complaint) but I still cannot read the text
well enough to be able to understand what is going on as the
cursor and text are moved around the screen.
McCool__: We warn people, because things are fragile and may
break.
addison: They may display incorrectly, I wouldn't call that
"break".
McCool__: We already have a green box about locale, with
warnings.
addison: works for me.
McCool__: About date/time: may be just wording issue.
addison: People sometimes confused about offset vs time zone.
They're not the same.
... Recommend to use UTC where you can.
McCool__: The device displaying it may have to localize it.
addison: That's a different thing.
... Carrying offsets just means adding/subtracting from the
UTC.
JcK: Calendars are long-standing problem.
addison: 8601 didn't try to solve it.
... just use UTC for time stamps.
McCool__: I'll have to look at the text if it is clear about
that.
taki: I mailed just before the meeting.
... Some things in the self-check list were not very clear.
<taki> The followings are items that we need advice from i18n
group.
[18]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595 1.
Reference BCP47 for language tag matching. need to add a
description on language tag matching?
[19]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/578 2.
Allow for leap seconds in date and time data types. [Comment]
Thing Description referes to dateTime in XSD Version 1.1 and it
does not allow leap-se
[18] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595
[19] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/578
<taki> conds.
[20]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/585 3.
Provide metadata constructs that can be used to indicate the
base direction of any natural language string. 4. Specify that
consumers of strings should use heuristics, preferably based on
the Unicode Standard first-strong algorithm, to detect the base
direction of a string except where metadata is provided.
[20] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/585
<taki>
[21]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595 1.
Reference BCP47 for language tag matching. need to add a
description on language tag matching?
[21] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595
<JcK> Really, it is "user perception of specifying times and
dates in the future" are a long-standing problem. No solutions
or changes suggested, but be aware as you are writing the spec
that the problem is out there and unsolved.
taki: See ^^
addison: Your spec successfully avoids specifying language
matching. It mentions lang negotiaton but doesn't say how you
do it.
... There are some possibilities.
McCool__: We mention HTTP negotiation, but don't give rules for
it.
... We can probably leave that to the implementations. Won't
break anything.
... I'll make a note about it.
<taki>
[22]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/578
[22] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/578
<taki> 2. Allow for leap seconds in date and time data types.
<taki> [Comment] Thing Description referes to dateTime in XSD
Version 1.1 and it does not allow leap-seconds.
taki: Also question about leap seconds: there is no support for
leap seconds?
addison: All that means ist that seconds may go up to 60.
McCool__: We can easily support them.
... Can be used in certain cases only.
... All time stamps in the spec don't need nanosecond accuracy.
But some payload may need accuracy.
kaz: One quick question: From previous call, I understand there
are i18n issues with TD, but the architecture itself is quite
abstract and maybe wouldn't require i18n review.
addison: Didn't look closely, but you'll never know...
McCool__ and Kaz discuss next steps and time line.
Adjourned.
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 9 May 2019 15:31:59 UTC