[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2019-05-09


text extract follows:


            Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

09 May 2019




           atsushi, addison, r12a, Katy, JcK, Bert, Jeff_, xfq,
           kaz, Matthias, Sebastian, McCool, Taki


           Addison Phillips

           addison, Bert


      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]Agenda and Minutes
          2. [5]WoT Review
      * [6]Summary of Action Items
      * [7]Summary of Resolutions

    <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

    <agendabot> clear agenda

    <addison> scribenick: addison

    <Bert> scribenick: Bert

Agenda and Minutes

WoT Review

    r12a: Extra agenda item: document I sent.

    MichaelM: Unissued doc describes architecture. Has not enough

    Kaz: We talked about that in prev meeting already.

    <addison> addison: notes that we didn't review the architecture

    McCool__: data format with readable string, has language, but
    not direction.
    ... We derive the direction from the language.
    ... json-ld should solve this, we think.
    ... default language sets direction.
    ... "title" and "description" appear in multiple places.
    ... They can have multiple strings each with a lang tag.
    ... When retrieviing a thing description, might do HTTP
    ... Allows for richer environment. Also need to markup default
    ... Issue with lang nego is that you may end up with diff. lang
    than what support tag provides.
    ... So we decided that the support tag should always be a URI.
    ... We decided to use "title" instead of "name" and thus use
    the title mechanism.

    addison: We read the spec and saw your responses to our
    ... Maybe some nuances and some comments.
    ... I just submitted a list of comments on date/time.

    <Zakim> r12a, you wanted to discuss 3 comments related to bidi

    addison: Today lets discuss open issues.

    r12a: First of all, thanks for the excellent self-review!
    ... The way you describe how to get to bidi info does not
    include first-strong heuristics.


       [8] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/643

    r12a: I think that should be the first heuristics.

    McCool__: The strong-first is reasonable when there is a human
    to fix it if the heuristic fails.
    ... Not so much between machines.

    addison: You send the string to something with the capacity to
    display it.

    McCool__: It may be just be a thermostat that displays a

    addison: If it has the capacity to display bidi, it will be
    able to do the heuristic.

    <addison> [9]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing

       [9] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing

    r12a: You say there is a place to specify the default language.
    But you don't say there *must* be a default.

    <taki> [10]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing

      [10] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing

    McCool__: We can add first-strong as an allowed first
    ... We can say it can be applied in absence of lang info.

    <taki> [11]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing

      [11] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing

    Taki: first-strong is already mentioned in the spec.

    <McCool__> [12]https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/

      [12] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/

    taki: The big table.

    addison: the table and the green box.

    McCool__: Should we say first-strong should be used?

    addison: yes.

    McCool__: Is there an issue open for that already?

    addison: your issue 643


      [13] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635

    [looking at the issue on McCool__'s screen]

    text in bullet list needs updating.

    r12a: second issue is when you have, say an arabic string that
    starts with html code. You'd have to label it as english to get
    the code to display, but actually it is arabic...

    addison: why as english? you want rtl, don't you?

    r12a: you might be right...
    ... In such a situation, the lang might be there. But if the
    text comes form a user filling a form, it may not.
    ... If the string can be edited, e.g.

    addison: The cldr sub tags are meant to address it.

    r12a: I think that is in the spec somewhere.



    McCool__: [looking through spec]


      [15] https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#thing

    addison: section 6.3.2

    McCool__: "default language... must include sub-tag..."

    addison: People read these specs naively. Have no context.
    Better to point and not overspecify.
    ... Don't want people to write en-lat when there is really no
    need for subtags.


      [16] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/635

    r12a: It already says? "... *if* a lang can be written in more
    than one script".

    addison: see my suggested text in ^^

    <addison> TD Processors should be aware of certain special
    cases when processing bidirectional text. They should take care
    to use bidi isolation when presenting strings to users,
    particularly when embedding in surrounding text. Mixed
    direction text can occur in any language, even when the
    language is properly identified. TD producers should attempt to
    provide mixed direction strings in a way that can be displayed
    successfully by a naive user agent. For exa[CUT]

    r12a: Other possible way is to just say json-ld hasn't solved
    it, we can't solve it at the moment.

    McCool__: We may run into issues. Spec usage is one or two
    years out.

    r12a: If you worry about first-strong algo in small devices,
    there is quite a lot more processing involved in detecting base
    direction from language tags.
    ... Can mark it "at risk" as well, then you can pull it later.

    addison: It is a recommendation for consumers: "you should...".
    That's good enough.

    McCool__: We'll try to word it with two shoulds and try to
    avoid conflicts.

    addison: Use lang info first, use first-strong in its absence.

    r12a: In other words, you do first-strong unless you have more
    info, such as language info.

    McCool__: We'll need to work on the "must" and "should".

    addison: You can even use "may". You "should" use strong-first
    in the absence of lang info. You "may" use... etc.



    McCool__: We should still mention the cldr sub tag, but soften
    the language to "may".

    <r12a> “In particular, producers of TDs should avoid numbers
    with embedded spaces in bidirectional text. Strings starting
    with embedded text using a script with a writing direction
    opposite to that of the base direction (for example, English
    words embedded in Arabic text) or with multidigit numbers
    should be avoided if possible.”

    r12a: third isssue:
    ... [looking for link]

    addison: I proposed text should be removed altogether.

    r12a: The data needs to be what the data is, that’s why you
    have the other mechanisms described above. Rather than ‘avoid
    if possible’ say ‘use the directional override mechanism
    described above”.

    addison: Don't want to tell people not to use bidi.
    ... We want people to exchange their actual text, not avoid it.

    r12a: Don't say constrain your data, but do say watch out and
    use appropriate technology.

    <JcK> For whatever it is worth, I've got the page display at
    full screen, at 150% magnification, on a 26 inch monitor. It
    may be merely a sign of my advanced age (in which case this is
    an accessibility complaint) but I still cannot read the text
    well enough to be able to understand what is going on as the
    cursor and text are moved around the screen.

    McCool__: We warn people, because things are fragile and may

    addison: They may display incorrectly, I wouldn't call that

    McCool__: We already have a green box about locale, with

    addison: works for me.

    McCool__: About date/time: may be just wording issue.

    addison: People sometimes confused about offset vs time zone.
    They're not the same.
    ... Recommend to use UTC where you can.

    McCool__: The device displaying it may have to localize it.

    addison: That's a different thing.
    ... Carrying offsets just means adding/subtracting from the

    JcK: Calendars are long-standing problem.

    addison: 8601 didn't try to solve it.
    ... just use UTC for time stamps.

    McCool__: I'll have to look at the text if it is clear about

    taki: I mailed just before the meeting.
    ... Some things in the self-check list were not very clear.

    <taki> The followings are items that we need advice from i18n
    [18]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595 1.
    Reference BCP47 for language tag matching.   need to add a
    description on language tag matching?
    [19]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/578 2.
    Allow for leap seconds in date and time data types.   [Comment]
    Thing Description referes to dateTime in XSD Version 1.1 and it
    does not allow leap-se

      [18] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595
      [19] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/578

    <taki> conds.
    [20]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/585 3.
    Provide metadata constructs that can be used to indicate the
    base direction of any natural language string. 4. Specify that
    consumers of strings should use heuristics, preferably based on
    the Unicode Standard first-strong algorithm, to detect the base
    direction of a string except where metadata is provided.

      [20] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/585

    [21]https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595 1.
    Reference BCP47 for language tag matching.   need to add a
    description on language tag matching?

      [21] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/595

    <JcK> Really, it is "user perception of specifying times and
    dates in the future" are a long-standing problem. No solutions
    or changes suggested, but be aware as you are writing the spec
    that the problem is out there and unsolved.

    taki: See ^^

    addison: Your spec successfully avoids specifying language
    matching. It mentions lang negotiaton but doesn't say how you
    do it.
    ... There are some possibilities.

    McCool__: We mention HTTP negotiation, but don't give rules for
    ... We can probably leave that to the implementations. Won't
    break anything.
    ... I'll make a note about it.


      [22] https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/578

    <taki> 2. Allow for leap seconds in date and time data types.

    <taki> [Comment] Thing Description referes to dateTime in XSD
    Version 1.1 and it does not allow leap-seconds.

    taki: Also question about leap seconds: there is no support for
    leap seconds?

    addison: All that means ist that seconds may go up to 60.

    McCool__: We can easily support them.
    ... Can be used in certain cases only.
    ... All time stamps in the spec don't need nanosecond accuracy.
    But some payload may need accuracy.

    kaz: One quick question: From previous call, I understand there
    are i18n issues with TD, but the architecture itself is quite
    abstract and maybe wouldn't require i18n review.

    addison: Didn't look closely, but you'll never know...

    McCool__ and Kaz discuss next steps and time line.


Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    [End of minutes]

Received on Thursday, 9 May 2019 15:31:59 UTC