RE: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Hi Phil,

Thanks. This looks good to me.

Addison

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
> To: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com>; Deirdre Lee
> <deirdre@derilinx.com>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>;
> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
> Cc: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org; www International
> <www-international@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
> representation #187
> 
> Thanks again Addison,
> 
> Pls see below.
> 
> On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> > Hi Phil,
> >
> > This looks good. A few comments.
> >
> > 1. Rather than providing your own definition for 'locale', you might make
> use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].
> 
> Done
> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter

> 
> >
> > 2. The "why" is still missing something. I would suggest adding a new first
> paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:
> >
> > --
> > Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any particular
> language or culture are more durable and less open to misinterpretation than
> values that use one of the many different cultural representations. By using a
> locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific
> interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of the user.
> >
> > When the data is already in a locale-specific format, providing locale
> > parameters... <rest of existing text>
> 
> 
> Done, exactly as you suggest
> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

> 
> With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Phil.
> 
> > --
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale

> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org]
> >> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
> >> To: Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com>; Phillips, Addison
> >> <addison@lab126.com>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>;
> >> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
> >> Cc: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org; www International
> >> <www-international@w3.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
> >> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

> >>
> >> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim; 1a. taken account of
> >> Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with
> references 2.
> >> title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations 3.
> >> moved to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4.
> >> added R- FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated
> >> the UCR cross matching; 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
> >> updated my Pull request.
> >>
> >> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
> >> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of
> >> these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.
> >>
> >> HTH
> >>
> >> Phil.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
> >>> HI,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and
> >>> should be straight-forward to incorporate.
> >>>
> >>> The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something
> >>> like 'Provide locale-neutral data'
> >>>
> >>> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move
> >>> BP3 to the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which
> >>> would make it BP14, right?
> >>>
> >>> Kind regards,
> >>>
> >>> Deirdre
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> >>>> Hi Phil,
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start.
> >>>> I have some comments on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends
> >>>> to "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way
> >>>> to do this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation
> >>>> should be more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide
> >>>> locale/language information where that's not possible". The pull
> >>>> request captures the use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really
> >>>> explain about when to provide locale and language information.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would change this:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
> >>>> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> To say:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and
> >>>> values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the
> >>>> locale used by data values.</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> I would change:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of
> >>>> the actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
> >>>> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a
> >>>> string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such
> >>>> as:</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> To say:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For
> >>>> example, XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are
> >>>> intended for locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral
> >>>> representations allows the data values to be processed accurately
> >>>> without complex parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the
> >>>> data to be presented in the format most comfortable for the
> >>>> consumer of the data. For example, rather than storing "€2000,00"
> >>>> as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure
> >>>> such as:</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters
> >>>> are needed. Something like:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered
> >>>> into a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any
> >>>> natural language text values. For each data field that can contain
> >>>> locale affected or natural language text, there should be an
> >>>> associated language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the
> data.
> >>>> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to
> >>>> ensure proper presentation and processing of the value by the
> consumer.
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
> >>>>
> >>>> Addison
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org]
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
> >>>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>; Annette Greiner
> >>>>> <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
> >>>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com>; ishida@w3.org;
> >>>>> public-dwbp- comments@w3.org; www International
> >>>>> <www-international@w3.org>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3.
> >>>>> You can see the results at
> >>>>>
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

> >>>>>
> >>>>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value
> >>>>> of the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for
> >>>>> it to be an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have
> >>>>> not moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the
> >>>>> editors who may want to make further changes - or argue for it to
> >>>>> be left where it is, or add references from the formats section or, or,
> or...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447

> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02

> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear Ishida,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to
> >>>>>> ask your opinion about two of our proposals:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3
> >>>>>> [2], or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section
> >>>>>> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having
> >>>>>> local-neutral representations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed
> >>>>>> that we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new
> >>>>>> BP and to collect feedback from the community.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks a lot!
> >>>>>> DWBP editors
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/

> >>>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
> >>>>>>
> >> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

> >>>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats

> >>>>>> [4]
> >>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.

> >>>>>> ht
> >>>>>> ml
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Addison,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I
> >>>>>>> am still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as
> >>>>>>> to how to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can
> >>>>>>> most easily be made locale specific by existing tools. You
> >>>>>>> mention "pre-made standards for the basic data types". Is there
> >>>>>>> a recommended list we could
> >>>>> reference?
> >>>>>>> Thanks for your help!
> >>>>>>> -Annette
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Annette,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of
> >>>>>>>> the WG.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the
> >>>>>>>> Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your
> >>>>>>>> document, for example, is XML Schema. While the
> representations
> >>>>>>>> of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more
> >>>>>>>> appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as
> >>>>>>>> plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
> >>>>>>>> machine readable and intended to
> >>>>> be read by machines for later processing.
> >>>>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the
> >>>>>>>> data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific
> >>>>>>>> separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more
> >>>>>>>> localized values. Save for "free
> >>>>> text"
> >>>>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral
> >>>>>>>> and these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so
> forth.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
> >>>>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon),
> >>>>>>>> we have many different common measurement units defined
> internally.
> >>>>>>>> To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to
> >>>>>>>> construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are
> >>>>>>>> profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts,
> >>>>>>>> hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a
> >>>>>>>> nightmare to have to deal with localized
> >>>>> presentation formats on top of that.
> >>>>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and
> >>>>>>>> these are what are needed to build almost any data structure
> >>>>>>>> necessary for global interchange of data.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Does that make sense?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Addison
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Addison Phillips
> >>>>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
> >>>>>>>> It is an architecture.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov]
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
> >>>>>>>>> To: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
> >>>>>>>>> Cc: www International <www-international@w3.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
> >>>>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice
> >>>>>>>>> of locale neutrality.
> >>>>>>>>> You
> >>>>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol,
> >>>>>>>>> grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes,
> >>>>>>>>> etc., and you give an example of a locale-neutral data
> >>>>>>>>> structure for monetary
> >> values.
> >>>>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address
> >>>>>>>>> differences in decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of
> >>>>>>>>> grouping digits, or digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism
> >>>>>>>>> to separately specify the units, and the example uses an
> >>>>>>>>> ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas.
> >>>>>>>>> Is there a broad standard (beyond just monetary) for
> >>>>>>>>> addressing the other symbol/representation issues you raised
> >>>>>>>>> that we can address
> >> briefly in our best practice?
> >>>>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
> approach?
> >>>>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
> >>>>>>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your
> >> example)?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -Annette
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, ishida@w3.org wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata

> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
> >>>>>>>>>> applications to work accurately with things like dates,
> >>>>>>>>>> currencies and numbers that may look similar but have
> >>>>>>>>>> different meanings in different locales.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
> >>>>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users
> >>>>>>>>>> in a locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of
> >>>>>>>>>> storing the string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure
> >>>>>>>>>> like the following is strongly
> >>>>>>>>>> preferred:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>>>>> "price" {
> >>>>>>>>>>      "value": 2000.00,
> >>>>>>>>>>      "currency": "EUR"
> >>>>>>>>>> }
> >>>>>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is
> >>>>>>>>>> an excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol,
> grouping
> >>>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
> >>>>>>>>>> because there can be wide variation (sometimes open to
> >>>>>>>>>> misinterpretation) that sending a locale neutral format is
> >> preferred for data values.
> >>>>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
> >>>>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to
> >>>>>>>>>> write
> >>>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
> >>>>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
> >>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
> >>>>>>>>> Laboratory
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Annette Greiner
> >>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
> >>>>>>> Laboratory
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil Archer
> >>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://philarcher.org

> >>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
> >>>>> @philarcher1
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> Phil Archer
> >> W3C Data Activity Lead
> >> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

> >>
> >> http://philarcher.org

> >> +44 (0)7887 767755
> >> @philarcher1
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

> 
> http://philarcher.org

> +44 (0)7887 767755
> @philarcher1

Received on Tuesday, 23 August 2016 14:12:39 UTC