[minutes] Internationalization telecon 2013-09-26

http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html





Text version follows:


Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

26 Sep 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Sep/0019.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-irc

Attendees

    Present
           aphillip, jdaggett, Richard, johnKlensin

    Regrets
           Felix, DavidClarke

    Chair
           Addison Phillips

    Scribe
           Addison Phillips

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Agenda
          2. [6]Action Items
          3. [7]Info Share
          4. [8]RADAR
          5. [9]'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text
          6. [10]QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)
          7. [11]Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note
          8. [12]Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts
          9. [13]AOB?
      * [14]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

Agenda

Action Items

    <r12a> [15]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

      [15] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

    action-251?

    <trackbot> action-251 -- Addison Phillips to Contact the epub
    folks and see if they will write to html asking about ruby --
    due 2013-09-05 -- OPEN

    more important is probably to get the Digital Publications
    folks to show that there is a real need for ruby to the
    potential implementers

    <trackbot>
    [16]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/251

      [16] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/251

    close action-258

    <trackbot> Closed action-258.

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: change the teleconference time per
    action-258 [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-261 - Change the teleconference time
    per action-258 [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].

    close action-259

    <trackbot> Closed action-259.

    <scribe> ACTION: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration,
    notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be
    around [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-262 - Cancel tpac room reserveration,
    notify lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be
    around [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].

Info Share

    richard: when I'm at TPAC, the web platform docs guys want to
    talk about nav between translated pages
    ... ITS 2.0 went to PR
    ... CSS ruby module was published as WD

    (a hearty round of cheers)

RADAR

    [19]http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar

      [19] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar

    <r12a> nothing with deadline or of note this week

'Tr' defaulting behavior in Vertical Text

    addison: visitor john daggett

    <jdaggett> [20]http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/japanese.png

      [20] http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/japanese.png

    john: vertical text layout has distinct characters that can
    have mixed orientations

    <r12a> johnD: vertical layout has mixed orientations for
    characters

    <jdaggett>
    [21]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#text-orientation

      [21] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-writing-modes/#text-orientation

    <r12a> ... there is not necessarily a definitive orientation
    for a given character

    <r12a> ... UTR50 defines default orientations

    <r12a> ... for use when there is no markup or other indication
    available

    <r12a> ... question is: for a given code point what's the best
    default?

    <r12a> ... in some cases it's clear, latin is rotated, kanji is
    upright

    <jdaggett>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110531/#v
    ertical-typesetting-details

      [22] 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-css3-writing-modes-20110531/#vertical-typesetting-details

    <r12a> ... in writing modes the situation was not too clear, so
    it was proposed to define a Unicode property

    <r12a> ... as new codepoints are added the Unicode Consortium
    will maintain the data

    <jdaggett>
    [23]http://www.unicode.org/Public/vertical/revision-11/Vertical
    Orientation-11.html

      [23] 
http://www.unicode.org/Public/vertical/revision-11/VerticalOrientation-11.html

    <r12a> ... this led to UTR50 which defines the vertical
    orientation property

    <r12a> ... if the author has not set a text orientation
    property explicitly, the user agent will use the UTR50
    properties to determine orientation

    <r12a> ... there are two T (transform) values

    <r12a> ... Tu needs a different glyph

    <jdaggett>
    [24]http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/#vertcal_alternates

      [24] http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr50/#vertcal_alternates

    Tu 3001 、 IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA Tu 3002 。 IDEOGRAPHIC FULL STOP

    those are examples

    <r12a> ... it's not just orientation

    Tr 3008 〈 LEFT ANGLE BRACKET Tr 3009 〉 RIGHT ANGLE BRACKET Tr
    300A 《 LEFT DOUBLE ANGLE BRACKET

    <r12a> Tr needs transformation but that transformation is a
    rotation

    <r12a> ... in OpenType layout is typically done the same way
    for Tu and Tr - they are laid out upright and a feature causes
    substitution to create needed glyph

    <r12a> ... most fonts will cover the Tu and Tr codepoints

    <jdaggett>
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0501.
    html

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Sep/0501.html

    <r12a> ... however, the spec allows optional fallback for Tr
    (only) codepoints

    # For Tr characters, which are intended to be either
    transformed or # rotated sideways, the UA may assume that
    appropriate glyphs for # upright typesetting are given in the
    font and render them upright; # alternately it may check for
    such glyphs first, and fall back to # typesetting them sideways
    if the appropriate glyphs are missing.

    <r12a> ... two problems: [$1\47] it's optional behaviour, but
    there's actually only one way that's right

    <r12a> ... it's not like alternative algorithms for say
    justification

    <r12a> ... determining the ability of the opentype features to
    deal with this is not straightforward

    <r12a> ... it's not a good idea to do layout operations on a
    glyph out of context

    <r12a> ... there may be stylistic contexts based on adjacent
    characters

    <r12a> ... unicode is defining an informative property, but the
    mechanics of the fallback mechanism is not what unicode is
    defining

    Vertical_Orientation (vo) property value, one of the following:
    U – Upright, the same orientation as in the character code
    charts R – Rotated 90 degrees clockwise compared to the code
    charts Tu – Transformed typographically, with fallback to
    Upright Tr – Transformed typographically, with fallback to
    Rotated

    Tr Same as Tu except that, as a fallback, the character can be
    displayed with the code chart glyph rotated 90 degrees
    clockwise.

    <r12a> ... existing fonts already provide alternates and the
    data is in the font

    <r12a> ... if the font doesn't have an alternate, we should
    view it as a font problem

    <r12a> addison: i have run into this in my day job in vertical
    text in Kindle, and it was a problem

    <r12a> ... some of our fonts don't have a complete set of
    rotated glyphs

    <r12a> ... in order to get the right results without manual
    styling we had to provide a fallback in the layout for those
    cases

    <r12a> johnd: it's equally wrong for Tu text if you don't have
    the right glyph

    <r12a> ... if we were talking about a large number of code
    points this may be a different discussion

    <r12a> ... and i'm not sure about the accuracy of some cases in
    UTR50

    <r12a> ... eg the semicolon is displayed upright in Chinese

    <r12a> addison: this is not a normative spec, so it can be
    adapted to solve problems

    <r12a> johnd: what has been specified in writing=modes is
    optional behaviour, and the complexity of the machinery
    requirements doesn't seem necessary given the extent of the
    problem

    <r12a> addison: we had to do fallback behaviour in kindle for
    corner cases - when you exceed a font capability you fall back
    to chinese or other fonts

    <r12a> ... we had complaints about glyphs not being properly
    rotated

    <r12a> johnd: i'd like to know more about the specifics of that
    example

    <r12a> addison: it may indeed by a quirky character, but a font
    can't have every glyph in it, so if you leave out something
    then people will complain

    <r12a> addison: this is a useful introduction, i think we need
    to have koji's viewpoint

    <r12a> ACTION: addison to provide further information about
    issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues
    [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Provide further information
    about issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues
    [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-10-03].

QA Translate Flag (any unfinished business??)

    <r12a> still waiting for comments from Felix

    <r12a> if not received by tomorrow morning, proceed to wide
    review

    <r12a> felix can submit comments with others

    addison to send announcement tomorrow (Friday)

Publish Ruby Use Cases as WG Note

    [27]http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/

      [27] http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby-use-cases/

    <r12a>
    [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ruby-use-cases-20130910/Overvi
    ew.html

      [28] 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-ruby-use-cases-20130910/Overview.html

    richard; can we publish as WG Note

    <scribe> chair: any objections?

    addison: support

    JcK: ok

    richard: sent email out and have had no comments

    <r12a> Agreed: publish Ruby Use Cases Doc as WG Note

    <scribe> ACTION: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note
    [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action05]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-265 - Publish ruby use cases as
    wg-note [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-10-03].

Authoring HTML: Handling RTL Scripts

AOB?

    <r12a> r12a: some comments from Mati i'll integrate, but we
    should move it soonish to review

    <Najib-ma> Reading it diagonally.

    <Najib-ma> A general remark.

    <Najib-ma> In the arabic exemple, choosing significative words
    would be less confusing.

    <Najib-ma> For exemple in the first examples one cannot see
    which arabic text is actually the attribute value and which one
    is the element value.

    <Najib-ma> I suggest for example (line breaks here for
    readability)

    <Najib-ma> <p class="myclass" title="عنوان">

    <Najib-ma> عربية

    <Najib-ma> </p>

    <Najib-ma> where the attribute value is the translation of the
    word "title" and the <p> content is the word Arabic

    <Najib-ma> More specific comments in a separate mail.

    <Najib-ma> /That's it, Thanks

    addison: thanks Najib! will look for the email

    <r12a> email would be good, najib

    <r12a> please send asap, thanks

    <Najib-ma> Ok

    <Najib-ma> By friday

    <r12a> najib, also see mati's comments

    <Najib-ma> I have to reply to

    <r12a> Meeting Adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: addison to provide further information about
    issues he encountered [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison to provide further information about
    issues he encountered wrt to font glyph rotation issues
    [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: cancel tpac room reserveration, notify
    lists that we won't formally meet but richard will be around
    [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: addison: change the teleconference time per
    action-258 [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: richard: publish Ruby Use Cases as WG-Note
    [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/26-i18n-minutes.html#action05]

    [End of minutes]

Received on Thursday, 26 September 2013 17:52:54 UTC