- From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:46:36 +0000
- To: www International <www-international@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html
Text version follows:
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
28 Feb 2013
[2]Agenda
[2]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2013Feb/0022.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-irc
Attendees
Present
Addison, Fantasai, Richard, Norbert, John_K, John_O,
Jan, Mati
Regrets
David, felix, aharon
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
aphillip
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Agenda
2. [6]Action Items
3. [7]Info Share
4. [8]Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches
for Ruby Markup"
5. [9]The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This
Meeting At?
6. [10]Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal
7. [11]Text decoration
8. [12]Charmod-Norm
9. [13]AOB?
10. [14]UTF-8 requirement
* [15]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
Agenda
Action Items
<r12a> [16]http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
[16] http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
close ACTION-176
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-176 Ping anne about encoding spec.
close action-186
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-186 Add floating times to pipeline.
ACTION-187: contacted most browsers (all but mozilla, but have
contact)
<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-187 Provide darobin with
contacts in browser vendors.
zakim +1.617 is John_C_Klensin
close action-187
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-187 Provide darobin with contacts in
browser vendors.
close action-188
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-188 Merge ruby documents for
publication as a WG Note.
Info Share
richard: noticed Leif Havard Silli is now editor of polyglot
Publication of "Use Cases & Exploratory Approaches for Ruby Markup"
<r12a> [17]http://www.w3.org/International/docs/ruby/
[17] http://www.w3.org/International/docs/ruby/
richard: put a lot of Leif's comments in (simplfying headings
and such)
... added a snapshot of other document I produced as appendix
... other changes made are change marked
... also converted to html5
<scribe> chair: review for next week publication as note status
<scribe> ACTION: richard: announce ruby note will be published
as note, last call for next week [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Announce ruby note will be
published as note, last call for next week [on Richard Ishida -
due 2013-03-07].
<r12a>
[19]http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/
[19] http://www.w3.org/International/notes/ruby-extension/
richard: elika may want to look at that... some embedding
improvements?
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk/2013Jan
Mar/0058.html
[20]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk/2013JanMar/0058.html
addison: above thread about bopomofo support
richard: (describing various issues for zhuyin ruby and layout)
fantasai: concern that there are two styles
... what happens when writing bopomofo just as plain text
... not as ruby, just as the base text
... what happens to the tone marks?
<r12a> [21]http://rishida.net/blog/?p=494
[21] http://rishida.net/blog/?p=494
richard: wrote the above
fantasai: kenny might know?
richard: talked to kenny. put that info into above?
... only have horizontal example
... tone mark following
... not sure of vertical, might have seen something
... very rare
... mostly used with the Chinese characters
addison: any effect on note?
richard: not really??
fantasai: agree. issue is how to handle writing system in
general or is this only when drawing ruby
... in which case tie it into ruby specs
<scribe> ACTION: richard: write to contacts and cjk list about
bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-190 - Write to contacts and cjk list
about bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [on Richard
Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
The Question That Won't Die: What Time is This Meeting At?
[23]http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
[23] http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
Moving Forward the Bidi Change Proposal
richard: had a discussion with aharon and elika and tab last
night
<r12a>
[24]http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation
[24] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Html-bidi-isolation
richard: tab sent me a writeup and more info that I integrated
to wiki as "proposal B" for the time being
... upshot basically is that new values for @dir may have
benefits
... in that 1) may be easier to manage after the transition and
wouldn't leave so much baggage around
... 2) would be easy to implement
... this is predicated on the expectation that the transition
period would be small-ish
... so what is proposed is instead of rli/lri
... use an 'r' and an 'l' value
... don't have to think about isolation
... more familiar
... and don't have to deprecate the @dir
... easier to type
... key thing is the transition period
addison: has some feedback at my IMUG talk.. think better to
migrate @dir
johnK: a lot of people will get it wrong the other way and this
is simple... less interop problems
richard: if you use @dir and @direction then you get fallback
behavior in unaware browsers
... but transition is short because implementation is
straightforward
... use CSS-hack mentioned previously
... otherwise use <bdi> for inline
... and this is as currently described in our bidi article
addison: don't really like 'r' and 'l' as values, non-mnemonic
richard: key issue is transition period
addison: transition period may be somewhat long because of IE
and android on mobile devices
<fantasai> discussion of including the appropriate style rules
into reset stylesheets / polyfill libraries
richard: put out for discussion again
... www-international or html or...?
addison: winter at least, html too?
fantasai: unsure of names?
addison: new tokens or new attribute is the question and we're
back to tokens?
richard: bidi list, robin also
<scribe> ACTION: richard: request comments on wiki page about
bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - Request comments on wiki page
about bidi change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list,
and html [on Richard Ishida - due 2013-03-07].
johnk: no strong thoughts on 'r' or 'l', except that single
characters are generally a bad idea because too short and error
prone
Text decoration
[26]http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
[26] http://www.doodle.com/nzks8wivyfuk84mw
[27]http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal201
3
[27] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013
fantasai: (aside) planning to wrap up comments on
text-decoration
... open issue about underlining style skip spaces... do we
skip ethopic
<fantasai> ethiopic word space
<fantasai> tibetan tsek
<scribe> ACTION: addison: solicit from input Unicode on
skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic
word sep, etc. [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-192 - Solicit from input Unicode on
skipping spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic
word sep, etc. [on Addison Phillips - due 2013-03-07].
<fantasai> if spaces are skipped when underlining, should we
skip those?
richard: underline can be broken by descender?
fantasai: yes, in particular style
richard: in like tibetan, descenders can be generated by
combinations
fantasai: there is a skip-ink value to allow for that?
richard: but tibetan or khmer, you have some characters that
conditionally poke through baseline
addison: happens on the rendered glyphs, not based on character
<scribe> ACTION: richard: supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink
for tibetan or khmer [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-193 - Supply CSS3 with pictures of
skip-ink for tibetan or khmer [on Richard Ishida - due
2013-03-07].
Charmod-Norm
[30]http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal201
3
[30] http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CharmodNormProposal2013
[31]http://inter-locale.com/w3c/charmod-norm-1.1-draft.html
[31] http://inter-locale.com/w3c/charmod-norm-1.1-draft.html
<r12a> addison: started calling it charmod 1.1 - is that a good
idea?
<r12a> ... history of character model as a whole is
significantly about early n11n - this may point up the change
in concepts
<r12a> johnO: might be good idea
<r12a> johnK: there are references all around, so if numbers
are cheap let do it
<r12a> addison: will will change the number then - tbd in what
way
<r12a> ... so far i kept most ot he examples and definitions
intact
<r12a> ... partly because we have specs that have specified
those (full-, etc-n11n)
<r12a> ... took out all the requirements and put in wiki
<r12a> ... sensing that the focus of the doc is string matching
now
<r12a> ... split into 3 chunks:
<r12a> ... 1. how to do string matching and normalization
<r12a> ... 2. unicode normalization, for people who used these
recommendations before
<r12a> ... 3. non-normalizing specifications, what you need to
know
<r12a> ... there are a couple that are obsolete or don't fit
neatly, like security issues, etc
<r12a> ... next step is to pull section 4 into the document and
position as the main focus
<r12a> ... also bring in materials on case folding as part of
that
<r12a> ... terse statements (dos and donts) are in the wiki for
review
<r12a> ... key ones at the top, and others nearer the bottom
<r12a> norbert: so you want to move away from unicode n11n?
<r12a> adddison: you can't require it or depend on it for
string matching, but the first req is that NFC makes life
easier
<r12a> norbert: first should be not to assume that text is
normalized
<r12a> ... but user text probably should be normalised
<r12a> ... such as the find command in a browser
<r12a> ... maybe thats a should rather than a may
<joconner> will have to drop off call, will stay on irc
<r12a> johnK: if you don't require for searches users will be
crazy
<r12a> addison: but also it makes them crazy if it looks the
same but their css selector doesn't work
<r12a> norbert: that's why i distinguish between user and code
<r12a> r12a: you should modify only in the actual matching
process - don't break an author's text
<matial> have to leave
addison: I'll update charmod norm reqs
norbert: annotate what C I and S mean in the wiki
AOB?
UTF-8 requirement
<jan> I had t odrop off the call to attend another one
norbert: propose Unicode must be supported (other encodings may
be supported)
addison: will make topic for next week (lost audience)
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: addison: solicit from input Unicode on skipping
spaces in css3 text-decoration specifically ethiopic word sep,
etc. [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: richard: announce ruby note will be published as
note, last call for next week [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: richard: request comments on wiki page about bidi
change proposal to robin, bidi list, winter list, and html
[recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: richard: supply CSS3 with pictures of skip-ink
for tibetan or khmer [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: richard: write to contacts and cjk list about
bopomofo handling as base and as ruby text [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/28-i18n-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
--
Richard Ishida, W3C
http://rishida.net/
Received on Thursday, 28 February 2013 18:47:00 UTC