RE: BDO example?

Jony, Tsahi, Paul, Prog,

Thanks for your comments.  Tsahi, wrt to the usage of span dir, bdo dir,
and rlm/lrm I have drafted some text that might help at
http://people.w3.org/rishida/scripts/indic-overview/ " What you need to
know about the bidi algorithm and inline markup" that may help
(unfortunately that server is currently down, and probably will be for
at least 24 hours, so I've attached a pdf). It's aimed at content
authors who need to understand how to implement HTML, rather than
techies implementing the bidi algorithm.

I'd also be interested in your comments on
http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/#ri20030218.135304584 -
which is one of the places for which I'm looking for examples, since I'm
about to attack the bdo section again. Note that this is still in very
early stages - I'm still in the middle of writing it -  and assumes that
you have read the document I mention above.

What I'm looking for is real life examples. Jony, do you have an example
of a real part number that I could use?  I think it helps to use
realistic examples where possible.

RI

============
Richard Ishida
W3C

tel: +44 1753 480 292
http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ 
http://www.w3.org/International/ 
http://www.w3.org/International/geo/ 

See the W3C Internationalization FAQ page
http://www.w3.org/International/questions.html



> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-international-request@w3.org
> [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Tsahi 
> Asher (by way of Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>)
> Sent: 16 August 2003 16:37
> To: www-international@w3.org
> Subject: RE: BDO example?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is true that in some places in the mozilla.org
> hebrew tech-evangelizm letter, <bdo> can be replaced
> with &rlm;. i found out about &rlm; only after that
> letter was written (my html is not very good).
> 
> on the other side, i'm not sure about the difference
> between <span dir="ltr"> and <bdo dir="ltr">, and when
> will one of them is better used than the other.
> 
> tsahi
> 
> --- Jony Rosenne <rosennej@qsm.co.il> wrote:
>  > I'm afraid this isn't a good example, and the
>  > rational is incorrect. In all
>  > cases the BDO is not necessary. In some places an
>  > &rlm; is sufficient, in
>  > other cases a <span dir="ltr"> will do.
>  >
>  > The use of BDO should be limited to when necessary.
>  > HTML 4 specification
>  > says:
>  >
>  > "The bidirectional algorithm and the dir attribute
>  > generally suffice to
>  > manage embedded direction changes. However, some
>  > situations may arise when
>  > the bidirectional algorithm results in incorrect
>  > presentation. The BDO
>  > element allows authors to turn off the bidirectional
>  > algorithm for selected
>  > fragments of text."
>  >
>  > "The BDO element should be used in scenarios where
>  > absolute control over
>  > sequence order is required (e.g., multi-language
>  > part numbers)."
>  >
>  > Please note that when you want to say "Document
>  > Object Model (DOM)", in a
>  > right to left paragraph the acronym follows on the
>  > left within rtl
>  > parentheses.
>  >
>  > The sample given also has an error in the meta tag.
>  >
>  > A corrected version, without BDO, is at
>  > http://www.qsm.co.il/Hebrew/nobdo.htm
>  >
>  > Jony
>  >
>  > > -----Original Message-----
>  > > From: www-international-request@w3.org
>  > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On
>  > Behalf Of
>  > > bidi@prognathous.mail-central.com
>  > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:31 AM
>  > > To: ishida@w3.org; www-international@w3.org
>  > > Subject: RE: BDO example?
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Here's an example:
>  > >
>  > http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tech-evangelism/site/tech-lett
>  > > er-he.html
>  > > You can read the rational for the use of BDO here:
>  >
>  > >
>  >
> http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99578#c14
>  > >
>  > > Prog.
>  > >
>  > > On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:30:04 +0200, "Jony Rosenne"
>  >
>  > > <rosennej@qsm.co.il>
>  > > said:
>  > > >
>  > > > I have used it for imbedding legacy data from an
>  > IBM
>  > > mainframe, which
>  > > > uses visual encoding, in HTML. I suppose this is
>  > the most
>  > > common use
>  > > > today, because there is quite a lot of legacy
>  > Hebrew data out there.
>  > > >
>  > > > The original example which I gave many years ago
>  > and helped
>  > > convince
>  > > > Unicode that an override was required was a
>  > reference number, or a
>  > > > part number, which looks like a random groups of
>  > digits, Hebrew
>  > > > letters and Latin letters
>  > > > with slashes between them, which are often used
>  > in
>  > > correspondence. When
>  > > > we
>  > > > still used typewrites, back in the previous
>  > century, people
>  > > could type
>  > > > any
>  > > > odd combination they fancied.
>  > > >
>  > > > Jony
>  > > >
>  > > > > -----Original Message-----
>  > > > > From: www-international-request@w3.org
>  > > > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org] On
>  > Behalf Of
>  > > Richard Ishida
>  > > > > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:03 PM
>  > > > > To: www-international@w3.org
>  > > > > Subject: BDO example?
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Does anyone have a convincing example of the
>  > need for BDO
>  > > > > markup in HTML for Arabic or Hebrew?
>  > > > >
>  > > > > I already have an example of 'this is what the
>  > text looks
>  > > > > like in memory', but that is not very
>  > mainstream.  I don't
>  > > > > really want an example that allows the support
>  > of visually
>  > > > > encoded text, either.
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Successful proposers may expect to see their
>  > example used as
>  > >
>  > > > > an illustration in the XHTML 2.0 spec and in
>  > GEO guidelines.  ;)
>  > > > >
>  > > > > Thanks in advance,
>  > > > > RI
>  > > > >
>  > > > > ============
>  > > > > Richard Ishida
>  > > > > W3C
>  > > > >
>  > > > > tel: +44 1753 480 292
>  > > > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>  > > > > http://www.w3.org/International/
>  > > > > http://www.w3.org/International/geo/
>  > > > >
>  > > > > See the W3C Internationalization FAQ page
>  > > > > http://www.w3.org/International/questions.html
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  >
>  >
> 
> 
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