- From: Tex Texin <texin@progress.com>
- Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 19:07:02 -0500
- To: "Carl W. Brown" <cbrown@xnetinc.com>
- CC: www-international@w3.org
Thanks Carl. I take this to mean that you are proposing that the language, country, character set, time zone, and variant, represent 5 orthogonal attributes which uniquely describe a "locale" and which are sufficient to describe a user. I think I would like "variant" to go away, or at least not be required to meet most needs. I know it is used for Euro, I am not sure what other general purpose usages it has. I wonder if we should add currency to your list of orthogonal values. Also, I note that language, country, and time zone are not sufficient to determine which calendar is being used. Perhaps timezone should be replaced with something representing calendar+date+time formats and timezone? I am not sure what to say about possibly "invalid" combinations such as euro currency and ISO 8859-1 character set (since it doesn't have the euro symbol)... Perhaps this leads us to defining locale as a collection of names for formats associated with basic datatypes- (text, calendar, currency...) It then becomes more precise, but less useful as an easy to use nomenclature... tex "Carl W. Brown" wrote: > > Tex, > > In xIUA I use the following format: > > Format: (no spaces) > ll[_CC ][.MM ][@VV][#TT] > > ll = lang, CC = ctry, MM = charmap, VV = Variant, TT = Time Zone > > For example: > > en_US.iso-5589-1#America/Los_Angeles > > or > > fr_FR.iso-5589-15@EURO#Europe/Paris > > It works well with ICU. The conversion both ways is very simple and > straight forward. > > Carl > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tex Texin [mailto:texin@progress.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:54 AM > > To: David_Possin@i2.com > > Cc: cbrown@xnetinc.com; www-international@w3.org; > > www-international-request@w3.org > > Subject: locales > > > > > > David, > > > > If you would set up an archived forum, that would be great. It will save > > me trying to identify which messages are relevant and saving them all on > > my drive. > > > > Mentioning time zones will, I am sure, insure a blast from Carl. (;-) I > > look forward to it.) > > One point is that a locale may include more than one zone (e.g. US goes > > from EST, CST PST) so is ambiguous, and we may go down the trail of the > > changes to daylight savings time may vary within a locale. > > > > A key question for me is which of the many variables for > > internationalization belong in a locale and which belong in some other > > structure? > > > > Maybe time and calendar should not be a function of locale... > > Maybe currency should not be. > > > > Which variables are best associated with the locale, which with the > > data, and which with the application? > > For example, since I develop database products, and I cannot have > > indexes changing on me, I always include the rules for sorting in the > > database, with the data. > > > > I don't generally worry about hyphenation, I would probably keep rules > > for that with the application (the choice being influenced but not > > defined by locale). > > > > tex > > > > > > > > David_Possin@i2.com wrote: > > > > > > I would propose to open a discussion forum for locales in the > > > yahoo.groups like many other globalization people have done for other > > > issues. It will be tough keeping up to date with all the threads > > > starting to pop up, and all are extremely important to me and my job. > > > Here are the issues I have been trying to monitor and even reply to, > > > adding my 2 cents: > > > > > > 1. Locale definition - what is a locale? > > > 2. Locale identification - how many parameters are needed for a > > > default minimal locale description? > > > 3. Language identification - how can we identify languages that are > > > not included in the ISO 639 language group standard? (Current > > > locale identifiers use the 2-letter code, not the 3-letter code) > > > 4. Time zones - There is no standard, the tz database is as close as > > > I can get to a standard and it is not officially tied to a > > > locale. This only touches the need for a standard global time & > > > date display. > > > 5. Currencies - Locales have only one currency tied to them, and > > > European locales still all have their national currencies > > > implied. > > > 6. Euro - The big problem is not the display, but how to use it. The > > > EC has strict requirements on how to do currency triangulation > > > with the euro. We discovered that rounding problems popped up > > > everywhere, especially when using euro precision for calculation > > > and had to display the value in a currency without decimals. It > > > would be a dream to have this in ICU. > > > 7. Even when the euro becomes standard for a country, older > > > transactions will still have to be working with old currencies > > > and/or triangulation. We can't just convert them. > > > > > > This only lists what has been mentioned in the last few days, > > > there is much more to be mentioned. I am trying to make PMs, > > > Devs, QA, etc globally aware here, but it is very hard to get > > > official requirements written up when there are no standards I > > > can show as reference. > > > > > > And my biggest proposal is to break the tie between language and > > > country when selecting a locale. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > "Tex Texin" <texin@progress.com> > > > Sent by: To: "Carl W. > > > www-international-request@w3.org Brown" <cbrown@xnetinc.com> > > > cc: > > > 11/07/01 12:15 PM www-international@w3.org > > > Subject: Re: > > > Euro mess (Was: valid > > > locales ---> was bilingual > > > websites > > > > > > Carl, > > > > > > I hope the locales issue doesn't fan out into thousands of other > > > threads, I won't be able to track them. > > > > > > With respect to the Euro, there are several different issues. > > > > > > a) Of course the Euro is important and having proper support for > > > the > > > Euro is required. > > > > > > b) ISO 8859-15 does not seem to be getting much adoption, which > > > is a > > > good thing. Since 8859-15 and 8859-1 are incompatible, and if you > > > adopt > > > 8859-15 you likely still need to interchange text with users of > > > 8859-1, > > > (as they both support the same languages more or less), the world > > > would > > > be a very difficult if there was a lot of adoption of -15. > > > > > > Anyone considering -15, should instead be considering Unicode. > > > > > > And there are other alternatives if the only requirement is to > > > support > > > the Euro character and continue with a single byte codepage. > > > Spelling out "Eur" or "Euro" is acceptable if there is space. And > > > inventing mechanisms (e.g. escape sequences, or other specialized > > > encodings) to print the Euro symbol are also possible. > > > > > > c) The issue relative to locales, is there is no standard > > > handling for > > > the Euro. So my understanding is some software will change the > > > currency > > > of their European locales from native monetary units to Euro on > > > Jan. 1. > > > This may be useful for some, but will likely break many > > > applications as > > > well. > > > > > > Others will create new locales specific to the Euro and/or > > > specific to > > > the old native currency. But which nomenclature you use when you > > > are > > > integrating software with different technologies and different > > > locale > > > naming conventions is a mystery to me. > > > > > > So now if I say fr_fr I do not know which currency I get and it > > > may > > > change from Dec 31 2001 to Jan 1 2002. > > > If I use an application that integrates technologies with > > > different > > > rules for locales, it could get very messy. > > > > > > I presume reading monetary data created before 2002 may also be > > > interpreted differently after 2002. > > > > > > And minor upgrades of software may in fact invoke these locale > > > changes, > > > so what should be a minor patch may in fact be a large change to > > > monetary handling. > > > > > > d) I don't know why there isn't more of an outcry over this. > > > Maybe there > > > is a reason the problems I cite in (c) won't happen that I don't > > > understand. (I am by no means an expert on the subject. Most of > > > my own > > > software has explicit regional settings and doesn't follow the > > > locale > > > model.) It will be interesting to know what people find if they > > > change > > > their system clock to 2002 and do some application testing. > > > > > > hth > > > tex > > > > > > "Carl W. Brown" wrote: > > > > > > > > Tex, > > > > > > > > I wonder why no one seems to care about the Euro? Are sites > > > going to > > > > continue to use iso-5589-1? How many browsers and systems > > > support > > > > iso-5589-15? > > > > > > > > Carl > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: www-international-request@w3.org > > > > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Tex > > > Texin > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:42 PM > > > > > To: Martin Duerst > > > > > Cc: David_Possin@i2.com; Karl Ove Hufthammer; > > > www-international@w3.org > > > > > Subject: Re: valid locales ---> was Re: bilingual websites > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin, > > > > > > > > > > You mean I can't just grouse and take potshots from the > > > sidelines? ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Well, I have not seen an alternative proposed and I don't > > > have one at > > > > > the ready, but I don't mind taking a shot at improving the > > > current > > > > > situation. However, I am crunching now thru the end of the > > > year, so I > > > > > will give it a go in the new year. > > > > > In the meantime, I would be happy to collect both suggestions > > > for > > > > > requirements and suggestions for solutions on this list or > > > privately. > > > > > > > > > > The new year should be interesting, as the switch to the new > > > Euro > > > > > currency will demonstrate some of the chaos with locales. > > > > > > > > > > tex > > > > > > > > > > Martin Duerst wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Tex - Could you write up (short), or point to, any proposal > > > > > > for how to do better than currently? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 14:57 01/10/31 -0500, Tex Texin wrote: > > > > > > >David, > > > > > > > > > > > > > >FWIW, I thoroughly agree that locales as we currently > > > define and > > > > > > >implement them, do not work. > > > > > > >As a naming convention it is inadequate, and when you > > > select a > > > > > name, you > > > > > > >are not sure what behavior you will get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I have mentioned this before, and the response is always > > > "Yes, it's > > > > > > >broken, but it is the best we have at the moment.". > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It is rather unfortunate that we have this methodology > > > therefore, and > > > > > > >that it is accepted, since it won't be fixed as long as > > > this response > > > > > > >continues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >tex > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >Tex Texin Director, International > > > Business > > > > > > >mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 > > > > > > >the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Tex Texin Director, International Business > > > > > mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 > > > > > the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Tex Texin Director, International Business > > > mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 > > > the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tex Texin Director, International Business > > mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 > > the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the > > one I've never tried before."- -Mae West -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Tex Texin Director, International Business mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271 the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655 ------------------------------------------------------------- "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before."- -Mae West
Received on Wednesday, 7 November 2001 19:07:05 UTC