- From: Carl W. Brown <cbrown@xnetinc.com>
- Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 14:32:34 -0800
- To: <www-international@w3.org>
Tex,
In xIUA I use the following format:
Format: (no spaces)
ll[_CC ][.MM ][@VV][#TT]
ll = lang, CC = ctry, MM = charmap, VV = Variant, TT = Time Zone
For example:
en_US.iso-5589-1#America/Los_Angeles
or
fr_FR.iso-5589-15@EURO#Europe/Paris
It works well with ICU. The conversion both ways is very simple and
straight forward.
Carl
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tex Texin [mailto:texin@progress.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:54 AM
> To: David_Possin@i2.com
> Cc: cbrown@xnetinc.com; www-international@w3.org;
> www-international-request@w3.org
> Subject: locales
>
>
> David,
>
> If you would set up an archived forum, that would be great. It will save
> me trying to identify which messages are relevant and saving them all on
> my drive.
>
> Mentioning time zones will, I am sure, insure a blast from Carl. (;-) I
> look forward to it.)
> One point is that a locale may include more than one zone (e.g. US goes
> from EST, CST PST) so is ambiguous, and we may go down the trail of the
> changes to daylight savings time may vary within a locale.
>
> A key question for me is which of the many variables for
> internationalization belong in a locale and which belong in some other
> structure?
>
> Maybe time and calendar should not be a function of locale...
> Maybe currency should not be.
>
> Which variables are best associated with the locale, which with the
> data, and which with the application?
> For example, since I develop database products, and I cannot have
> indexes changing on me, I always include the rules for sorting in the
> database, with the data.
>
> I don't generally worry about hyphenation, I would probably keep rules
> for that with the application (the choice being influenced but not
> defined by locale).
>
> tex
>
>
>
> David_Possin@i2.com wrote:
> >
> > I would propose to open a discussion forum for locales in the
> > yahoo.groups like many other globalization people have done for other
> > issues. It will be tough keeping up to date with all the threads
> > starting to pop up, and all are extremely important to me and my job.
> > Here are the issues I have been trying to monitor and even reply to,
> > adding my 2 cents:
> >
> > 1. Locale definition - what is a locale?
> > 2. Locale identification - how many parameters are needed for a
> > default minimal locale description?
> > 3. Language identification - how can we identify languages that are
> > not included in the ISO 639 language group standard? (Current
> > locale identifiers use the 2-letter code, not the 3-letter code)
> > 4. Time zones - There is no standard, the tz database is as close as
> > I can get to a standard and it is not officially tied to a
> > locale. This only touches the need for a standard global time &
> > date display.
> > 5. Currencies - Locales have only one currency tied to them, and
> > European locales still all have their national currencies
> > implied.
> > 6. Euro - The big problem is not the display, but how to use it. The
> > EC has strict requirements on how to do currency triangulation
> > with the euro. We discovered that rounding problems popped up
> > everywhere, especially when using euro precision for calculation
> > and had to display the value in a currency without decimals. It
> > would be a dream to have this in ICU.
> > 7. Even when the euro becomes standard for a country, older
> > transactions will still have to be working with old currencies
> > and/or triangulation. We can't just convert them.
> >
> > This only lists what has been mentioned in the last few days,
> > there is much more to be mentioned. I am trying to make PMs,
> > Devs, QA, etc globally aware here, but it is very hard to get
> > official requirements written up when there are no standards I
> > can show as reference.
> >
> > And my biggest proposal is to break the tie between language and
> > country when selecting a locale.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > "Tex Texin" <texin@progress.com>
> > Sent by: To: "Carl W.
> > www-international-request@w3.org Brown" <cbrown@xnetinc.com>
> > cc:
> > 11/07/01 12:15 PM www-international@w3.org
> > Subject: Re:
> > Euro mess (Was: valid
> > locales ---> was bilingual
> > websites
> >
> > Carl,
> >
> > I hope the locales issue doesn't fan out into thousands of other
> > threads, I won't be able to track them.
> >
> > With respect to the Euro, there are several different issues.
> >
> > a) Of course the Euro is important and having proper support for
> > the
> > Euro is required.
> >
> > b) ISO 8859-15 does not seem to be getting much adoption, which
> > is a
> > good thing. Since 8859-15 and 8859-1 are incompatible, and if you
> > adopt
> > 8859-15 you likely still need to interchange text with users of
> > 8859-1,
> > (as they both support the same languages more or less), the world
> > would
> > be a very difficult if there was a lot of adoption of -15.
> >
> > Anyone considering -15, should instead be considering Unicode.
> >
> > And there are other alternatives if the only requirement is to
> > support
> > the Euro character and continue with a single byte codepage.
> > Spelling out "Eur" or "Euro" is acceptable if there is space. And
> > inventing mechanisms (e.g. escape sequences, or other specialized
> > encodings) to print the Euro symbol are also possible.
> >
> > c) The issue relative to locales, is there is no standard
> > handling for
> > the Euro. So my understanding is some software will change the
> > currency
> > of their European locales from native monetary units to Euro on
> > Jan. 1.
> > This may be useful for some, but will likely break many
> > applications as
> > well.
> >
> > Others will create new locales specific to the Euro and/or
> > specific to
> > the old native currency. But which nomenclature you use when you
> > are
> > integrating software with different technologies and different
> > locale
> > naming conventions is a mystery to me.
> >
> > So now if I say fr_fr I do not know which currency I get and it
> > may
> > change from Dec 31 2001 to Jan 1 2002.
> > If I use an application that integrates technologies with
> > different
> > rules for locales, it could get very messy.
> >
> > I presume reading monetary data created before 2002 may also be
> > interpreted differently after 2002.
> >
> > And minor upgrades of software may in fact invoke these locale
> > changes,
> > so what should be a minor patch may in fact be a large change to
> > monetary handling.
> >
> > d) I don't know why there isn't more of an outcry over this.
> > Maybe there
> > is a reason the problems I cite in (c) won't happen that I don't
> > understand. (I am by no means an expert on the subject. Most of
> > my own
> > software has explicit regional settings and doesn't follow the
> > locale
> > model.) It will be interesting to know what people find if they
> > change
> > their system clock to 2002 and do some application testing.
> >
> > hth
> > tex
> >
> > "Carl W. Brown" wrote:
> > >
> > > Tex,
> > >
> > > I wonder why no one seems to care about the Euro? Are sites
> > going to
> > > continue to use iso-5589-1? How many browsers and systems
> > support
> > > iso-5589-15?
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: www-international-request@w3.org
> > > > [mailto:www-international-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Tex
> > Texin
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:42 PM
> > > > To: Martin Duerst
> > > > Cc: David_Possin@i2.com; Karl Ove Hufthammer;
> > www-international@w3.org
> > > > Subject: Re: valid locales ---> was Re: bilingual websites
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Martin,
> > > >
> > > > You mean I can't just grouse and take potshots from the
> > sidelines? ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Well, I have not seen an alternative proposed and I don't
> > have one at
> > > > the ready, but I don't mind taking a shot at improving the
> > current
> > > > situation. However, I am crunching now thru the end of the
> > year, so I
> > > > will give it a go in the new year.
> > > > In the meantime, I would be happy to collect both suggestions
> > for
> > > > requirements and suggestions for solutions on this list or
> > privately.
> > > >
> > > > The new year should be interesting, as the switch to the new
> > Euro
> > > > currency will demonstrate some of the chaos with locales.
> > > >
> > > > tex
> > > >
> > > > Martin Duerst wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Tex - Could you write up (short), or point to, any proposal
> > > > > for how to do better than currently?
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards, Martin.
> > > > >
> > > > > At 14:57 01/10/31 -0500, Tex Texin wrote:
> > > > > >David,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >FWIW, I thoroughly agree that locales as we currently
> > define and
> > > > > >implement them, do not work.
> > > > > >As a naming convention it is inadequate, and when you
> > select a
> > > > name, you
> > > > > >are not sure what behavior you will get.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I have mentioned this before, and the response is always
> > "Yes, it's
> > > > > >broken, but it is the best we have at the moment.".
> > > > > >
> > > > > >It is rather unfortunate that we have this methodology
> > therefore, and
> > > > > >that it is accepted, since it won't be fixed as long as
> > this response
> > > > > >continues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >tex
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--
> > > > >
> > >-------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >Tex Texin Director, International
> > Business
> > > > > >mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271
> > > > > >the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655
> > > > >
> > >-------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Tex Texin Director, International Business
> > > > mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271
> > > > the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > Tex Texin Director, International Business
> > mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271
> > the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Tex Texin Director, International Business
> mailto:Texin@Progress.com Tel: +1-781-280-4271
> the Progress Company Fax: +1-781-280-4655
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> "When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the
> one I've never tried before."- -Mae West
Received on Wednesday, 7 November 2001 18:32:27 UTC