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Minutes: DOM3 Events Telcon

From: Doug Schepers <schepers@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:22:58 -0400
Message-ID: <4A26F7C2.6010301@w3.org>
To: www-dom@w3.org
Hi, Folks-

The minutes for the 3 June 2009 DOM3 Events telcon can be found here:


Or as text below:


       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

              Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

03 Jun 2009

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-irc


           Shepazu, smaug, Travis, MSjacob




      * [3]Topics
          1. [4]new telcon times
          2. [5]Mutation Events
          3. [6]diagrams, because they are pretty
      * [7]Summary of Action Items

    <trackbot> Date: 03 June 2009

    <smaug> is there a call today?

    <Travis> yep!

    <smaug> just a minute

    <smaug> ok, now I need to find the phonenumber...

    <shepazu> scribeNic: MSjacob

    <shepazu> scribeNick: MSjacob

new telcon times

    <shepazu> shepazu: we have a new participant, Daniel from Google

    shepazu: flexible on new telcom time
    ... Send preferences for telcom times to www-DOM mailing list.

Mutation Events

    shepazu: useful, pain, not performant

    Travis: can't deprecate

    shepazu: can put something in place to replace them
    ... shouldn't change the way they work now

    Travis: agree

    shepazu: bad perf better than breaking content

    Travis: are all mutation events slow?

    shepazu: will put in spec the ones that perform slowly, use these
    that operate better

    Travis: JS Ninjas proposed alternate API (maybe from Dean Edwards)
    watchSelector, mutation event w/ callback based on a filter
    ... probably use cases for this and the mutation events
    ... selector based solution doesn't let you watch attributes
    ... workaround: use x path
    ... mostly need to know when one node changes

    shepazu: steve sauders says CSS selectors end up being
    "malperformant" because people don't realize there are optimal and
    suboptimal ways of selecting
    ... after dev, will this selector-based solution actually be more

    Travis: it could be

    shepazu: should have conversation on mailing list, if someone can
    implement it would be great to work on facts

    Travis: could try to harvest feedback on mutation events, if there
    is a problem we could solve w/ a new performant mutation event we
    could just add that
    ... maybe officially deprecate but wouldn't be obsolete

    smaug: agree

    shepazu: two reports from mozilla: we dont have plans to implement
    DOMsubtreemodified, we might even remove some of the others
    ... probably very small X-browser mutation events

    Travis: doesn't say we don't include in DOM L3 events
    ... action to start dicuss on mailing list about possible additional
    solutions that solve the mut. events problem, find existing perf
    problems and maybe ways to solve them


       [8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2009JanMar/0007.html

    <smaug> Gecko does support DOMSubtreeModified

    <smaug> I implemented it :p

    Travis: would love to see more edits of spec as they come

    shepazu: hixie requested more explanation of what each event should
    do and when it should be fired
    ... next thing to go through and add more detail about the events
    ... jacob: come up with stuff on your own, run things by the rest of

    Travis: and doug and the rest of the guys

    <shepazu> ACTION: Travis to send in proposal from CSS Ninjas
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-350 - Send in proposal from CSS Ninjas [on
    Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].

    shepazu: action for Travis: send in proposal from the JS (CSS)

diagrams, because they are pretty

    Travis: did you use SVG?

    shepazu: yes



    shepazu: added window and made more pretty to events flow

    Travis: beautiful
    ... do these events bubble outside windows (like window in window)

    shepazu: they don't
    ... if you have an iframe, it will not leave the iframe
    ... maybe in HTML5, hixie might have provided a way to do that

    Travis: i think IE does do something like that

    shepazu: one exception maybe, in same domain
    ... should be secure, but shouldn't do it in other scenarios

    Travis: makes sense

    shepazu: maybe worth noting events do not bubble outside the window
    ... by default, events do not bubble outside window. Under certain
    circumstances, a user agent may allow this when it's determined not
    to be a security risk

    Travis: jacob needs to look at seamless

    shepazu: unrelated, for svg we're looking at a way to do parameters.
    for example, a button you want to reuse but alter params.
    ... useful way of messaging things between frames





    shepazu: first one may be nice and pretty but not as accurate
    ... first chart attempt at indicating how the text input is

    Travis: I think we need to do the same thing for IEs moddle

    shepazu: please do
    ... if we can get b/w IE and Mozilla teams (and maybe Daniel from
    Google Wave) to provide script library to let people use new model
    on older stuff and go forward with this new model

    Travis: I love it

    shepazu: rare opportunity to get it right in a majority of
    languages. will also bring in a intern'l expert in on this.
    ... do we black box it or actually work up an IME model

    Travis: If there's a great public IME creation system, that would be

    shepazu: Certain points on a slower connection that you might want
    to only do things after certain chars (like a space after a word in
    an AJAX lookup scenario)

    Travis: looks like the FF one is pretty accurate. Need to do some
    thought analysis on this.

    shepazu: happy to prettify / unify these
    ... would like to include as appendix in DOM3 events for interest in
    the old models
    ... smaug make sure yours is accurate, Travis MSjacob make a similar
    one for IE
    ... then I will try to unify

    <shepazu> ACTION: smaug to confirm gecko keyflow diagram [recorded
    in [13]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-351 - Confirm gecko keyflow diagram [on
    Olli Pettay - due 2009-06-10].

    <shepazu> ACTION: Travis to create and send in IE keyflow diagram
    [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-352 - Create and send in IE keyflow
    diagram [on Travis Leithead - due 2009-06-10].

    shepazu: don't forget to send in preferred times for telecon
    ... any other questions

    Travis: link to spec is latest editors draft?

    shepazu: yes

    Travis: are the parts that are more/less stable that should be
    focused on?

    shepazu: unstable: mutation events, keyboard events
    ... and wheel events

    Travis: never closed on line/pixel scrolling

    shepazu: got into ideas in different kinds of wheel events
    ... more stable: mouse events
    ... people have asked for additional mouse events
    ... plans for more advanced ui events (multi touch, pen and tablet)

    <shepazu> Wacom

    shepazu: should consult with waycom
    ... hoping to get them involved in what they want to see on the web
    ... right now they deal with designers on the desktop, but things
    are moving to the web

    <shepazu> trackbot, make minutes

    <trackbot> Sorry, shepazu, I don't understand 'trackbot, make
    minutes'. Please refer to [15]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
    for help

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: smaug to confirm gecko keyflow diagram [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Travis to create and send in IE keyflow diagram
    [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Travis to send in proposal from CSS Ninjas [recorded
    in [18]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/03-webapps-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Wednesday, 3 June 2009 22:23:06 UTC

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