Re: Normative reference to schema.org in EPUB Accessibility?

Hi Ivan

“To avoid unnecessary administration: wouldn't it be possible for the EPUB WG to formally take over the maintenance via some process? After all, the EPUB WG is now the guardian of the A11y EPUB document…”

Both of us discussed this some months ago, and we concluded that schema.org is not specific to publishing, by moving it under any publishing group we will end up creating a perception that it is specific to publishing.
At this point of time moving maintenance of schema.org a11y metadata to a CG looks as a low resistance solution.


With regards
Avneesh
From: Ivan Herman 
Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 12:28
To: Matt Garrish 
Cc: Ralph Swick ; W3C Public Archives ; W3C Chairs of EPUB 3 WG ; Philippe le Hégaret ; Avneesh Singh 
Subject: Re: Normative reference to schema.org in EPUB Accessibility?

Thanks Matt. I am happy to yield to you for the various details, I only acted as a go-between. One remark, though:



  On 8 Sep 2021, at 22:35, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com> wrote:

  The odd thing in this case is that the same people primarily responsible for
  developing the accessibility metadata in schema.org are the same people
  working on the EPUB accessibility specification. I was the editor of the
  schema.org proposal, for example, working for Benetech at the time. Charles
  Lapierre, George Kerscher, and Avneesh Singh were also all involved in the
  original proposal and are members of the WG, and Madeleine Rothberg
  represented IMS and continues to work with us on the metadata and
  implementing it in EPUB.

  So in that sense, we know that the metadata itself is stable, as we're still
  the primary maintainers even if the charter/funding of the original grouping
  has lapsed. We've been using the EPUB/publishing accessibility groups as a
  meeting space over the years.

  That said, we're currently working to create a more formal maintenance
  structure, most likely a W3C community group similar to how schema.org
  itself is maintained, as everyone recognizes the web schemas wiki page is
  dated, insufficient to the task, and lacks a formal update policy (that
  "issue tracker" link is a relic of some really old email discussions, as
  we've been logging issues in the publishing accessibility group's tracker[1]
  until we find a more permanent home). It exists because that's where we were
  pointed to document the properties when we first proposed them.

  That said, the reason why we don't reference the properties directly in the
  specification is entirely related to the process we had to follow to get 1.0
  of the specification through ISO standardization. The original IDPF version
  has the schema.org properties listed, but ISO would not recognize the
  vocabulary as a referenceable standard so the only workaround was prose
  descriptions. I'm sure everyone in the group would like to go back to
  referencing the properties directly again, as the current situation does
  nothing but add confusion. We didn't think it was an option in W3C, either,
  however.

  Assuming schema.org in itself isn't a barrier to being cited normatively, is
  the only need here to prove that the accessibility metadata itself is
  stable? If so, then I suppose the next step is to expedite the move to form
  a maintenance community group (cc'ing Avneesh).

To avoid unnecessary administration: wouldn't it be possible for the EPUB WG to formally take over the maintenance via some process? After all, the EPUB WG is now the guardian of the A11y EPUB document…

Ivan




  Given that we've been
  maintaining the metadata for years, and are known to the schema.org
  maintainers as the owners of the metadata, would formalizing the group prove
  sufficient stability?

  [1]
  https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Atype-
  schema.org

  Matt


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Ralph Swick <swick@w3.org> 
  Sent: September 8, 2021 5:05 PM
  To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
  Cc: W3C Public Archives <www-archive@w3.org>; W3C Chairs of EPUB 3 WG
  <group-epub-wg-chairs@w3.org>; Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>;
  Philippe le Hégaret <plh@w3.org>
  Subject: Re: Normative reference to schema.org in EPUB Accessibility?



  On 2021-09-08 09:37 AM, Ivan Herman wrote:

    Ralph, Philippe,

    this type of question comes up regularly, but I did not see any clear 
    cut answer.


  There's no absolute determination in advance; this is intentional.  Each
  case has its own considerations.


    The EPUB Accessibility spec[1] has a section on package metadata[2] to 
    refer to metadata like access mode or accessibility features. The 
    specification defines these terms in general, meaning that it is not 
    properly defined which terms are to be used in a real metadata 
    instantiation; this is left to the separate WG Note on a11y 
    techniques[3] which reveals the thinly veiled fact that, in practice,


  "thinly veiled" is a big flag for me.  The spec should be clear and as
  precise as possible about the Working Group's intentions.  If the WG intends
  that the conformance expectations for an eventual W3C Recommendation
  maximize interoperability with specific metadata usage it should state so.
  If it believes that the schema.org terms and their definitions are the
  correct solution, it should state so -- and be prepared to argue its
  position with the Director, the W3C Members, and the Community.


    these general terms refer to their equivalents in schema.org 
    <http://schema.org>[4]. Indeed, all the terms defined in [2] are, 
    actually, defined in schema.org <http://schema.org>, and those are the 
    only mappings for those terms. Those terms are not out of the blue,
    actually: they have been developed, originally, in cooperation with 
    the IMS Global[5] and are now maintained on [6].


  "maintained on [6]" does give me pause.  [6] does not state a maintenance
  policy and refers to an issue tracker that uses the pronoun "I" in many
  places, including its Resolved Issues section, and was last modified on 5
  January 2018.  The parent page (WebSchemas) is explicitly disclaimed as
  "left primarily for historical record".  Is this in fact the authoritative
  place for maintaining the current accessibility vocabulary?


    The reason of this somewhat weird setting in [2] is to avoid 
    normatively referring to schema.org <http://schema.org>.


  If the WG believes such a normative reference is what the Web needs, it
  should not shy away from stating that.


      Actually, the
    accessibility spec has an earlier version published at the ISO, and in  
    ISO land it was a clear no-no to do so. However, W3C is meant to be 
    more  flexible and therefore the question does arise. However, our 
    document on  normative references[7] is not 100% clear cut for me.

    Hence this mail: does W3C has an official position as for a normative 
    reference to schema.org <http://schema.org> terms?


  In this, as in many things, if the WG is able to obtain a clear and
  authoritative statement on the stability of the parts it wants to
  normatively reference, the organization (or community) who "owns" that
  stability, and the open process by which the referenced material is
  maintained, that is important to the Director's consideration.


    Specifically, is it
    possible to simplify [1] and make a clear reference to schema.org 
    <http://schema.org> instead of the hand-weaving approach we have there 
    currently? In case of a positive answer, can we, possibly, add a 
    reference to schema.org <http://schema.org> in [7] just as we do with 
    the WhatWG?


  It depends on the answers to the questions above (and maybe other questions
  that could arise) :)

  -Ralph


    Thanks for your help

    Ivan


    [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/
    <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/>
    [2] https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/#sec-disc-package
    <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/#sec-disc-package>
    [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-tech-11/#meta-002
    <https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-a11y-11/#sec-disc-package>
    [4] https://schema.org/accessMode <https://schema.org/accessMode> [5] 
    http://www.imsglobal.org/activity/accessibility
    <http://www.imsglobal.org/activity/accessibility>
    [6] https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility
    <https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/Accessibility>
    [7] https://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references
    <https://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references>



    ----
    Ivan Herman, W3C
    Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ <http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/>
    mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
    ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
    <https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704>






----
Ivan Herman, W3C 
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704