- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:19:38 -0400
- To: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
24 Mar 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly, Joanmarie_Diggs,
Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Regrets
David_Bolter
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia,
David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup.
2. [5]ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when
aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly
on some but not all elements.
3. [6]ACTION-1590: (Joseph/James) Confirm that the AXAPI
mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array.
4. [7]Placeholder discussion
* [8]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 24 March 2015
<clown> agenda: this
<scribe> scribe: joanie
ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex)
Mapping of role rowgroup.
<clown> issue-700?
<trackbot> issue-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in
aapis -- open
<trackbot> [9]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
[9] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
JS: We started this last week, but I don't recall finishing it.
RS: What has Alex actually said?
JS: You (Rich) sent him a question and I think he answered it.
(Looks for the mailing list thread)
<clown>
[10]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/00
60.html
[10] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0060.html
JS: The above is Alex's reply.
1. I only see one use case for role="rowgroup" is to break rows
into
groups, each groups is a separate set and position inside it
and set size
are calculated independently.
RS: If I read this correctly, he wants the actual number of
rows within the group to be reflected; not just the entire
table. Correct?
... If you were going through a number of rows, and all of a
sudden the row count goes from 3 to a row count of 500, in the
same table, you'd probably go crazy if you didn't know those
rows were part of a group.
JS: Sample markup?
<richardschwerdtfeger> <table>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <rowgroup>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“1” aria-rowcount=2”>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“2” aria-rowcount=2”>
<richardschwerdtfeger> </rowgroup>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“5”
aria-rowcount=500”>
<richardschwerdtfeger> …
<richardschwerdtfeger> </table>
RS: So the rowcount is in the context of the rowgroup (in the
example above).
<clown>
[11]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-rowgroup
[11]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: The above is the current mapping.
... Three are exposing something.
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Ideally, I don't want rowgroup exposed.
... I don't see why it would have a whole separate rowcount
... It's confusing.
RS: We didn't have rowcounts before.
... We can make this part of our response.
... We want rowcount to apply to the whole table, not just
groups.
<scribe> scribenick: Joanie
JS: He then says they don't expose groups for thead, tfoot, or
tbody.
... Unless they make it focusable.
... I do think he has a point with focusable. In terms of the
user agent, you can Tab to that row group. And that row group
has DOM focus.
RS: Do you want it to be a panel or a group?
... Joanie's going to be drafting a panel role. Have you done
that yet?
JD: I am still working on table-related things.
RS: (Writing response). Rowcount and rowindex reflect the
entire table; not the rowgroup.
... Due to this, rowgroup has no impact on these values
(aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex)
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the
aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of
rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of
the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the
entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no
impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on
context withing row count.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the
aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of
rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of
the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the
entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no
impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on
context with respect to row count.
(Discussion about appropriate role for rowgroup)
CS: Group and panel are not the same in MSAA or UIA.
... There's pane and group. The pane would be like the thing on
the right hand side in Office before the Ribbon.
<clown>
[12]https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/
AT-APIs/MSAA/Roles
[12]
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/Roles
CS: Typical applications you can use a function key to navigate
amongst panes in Windows.
RS: So is the group of any value in a rowgroup?
JS: There has to be an accessible if it gets focus.
CS: For UIA and MSAA it will need to be a group.
JS: Joanie wants it to be a panel for ATK.
RS: Does a div map to a group also?
CS: Yes. Fieldset also maps to group.
<clown>
[13]https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#ATK
-ROLE-PANEL:CAPS
[13]
https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#ATK-ROLE-PANEL:CAPS
JD: An ATK_ROLE_PANEL is a collection of "stuff" that is not a
block of text.
RS: What does Alex have it mapped to now?
JS: He has it mapped to group.
<clown>
[14]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-rowgroup
[14]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the
aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of
rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of
the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the
entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no
impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on
context with respect to row count. So, if it has focus we will
give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms, ATK/ATSPI will
make it a ATK_ROLE_PANEL,
RS: So I think the action is to ask James if it's ok to map
this to AXGroup.
<clown>
[15]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-rowgroup
[15]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: The current mappings are on the assumption that it's not
focused. Do you want to expose anything if it isn't focused and
cannot be focused?
CS: Actually no.
... We'd follow the same rules as div. For instance, if it had
a name, it would be exposed.
JD: You need to be consistent: If it's focusable, and we must
expose it at all, then it needs to be in the tree.
CS: That's what we do with everything. If it has tabindex, then
it goes into the tree.
RS: I'll modify our response to reflect that.
CS: Don't we have rules about this (when to expose objects)?
JS: Yes.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the
aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of
rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of
the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the
entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no
impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on
context with respect to row count. So, if it is focusable (has
a tabindex attribute) or it has an ARIA global attribute
applied we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based
platforms, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ROLE_PANEL otherwise it
will not be mapped.
<clown>
[16]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#in
clude_elements
[16]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
<cyns> add UIA control type is also Group
JS: The above part of the spec has this.
... (Reads from spec)
<richardschwerdtfeger> This is in response to your first bullet
on rowgroup after today's #aapi discussion:
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the
aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of
rows in the entire table or grid.
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of
the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the
entire grid or table
<richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no
impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on
context with respect to row count. So, if it is focusable (has
a tabindex attribute) or it has an ARIA global attribute
applied we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms
or UIA, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ROLE_PANEL otherwise it will
not be mapped.
JS: The mapping table entry for rowgroup currently treats it as
if it's a rowgroup with nothing else on it. I need to add in an
"if" clause.
... This is about the core mapping spec.
... I will take what you've written and use it as a guide for
the text I will write for the mapping spec entry for rowgroup
RS: I'll send this text to Alex.
(Group agrees)
ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and
aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
<clown> action-1373?
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case
for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly
on some but not all elements. -- due 2015-03-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[17]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
[17] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
JS: This is Cynthia's action. I think we decided to come back
to it this week.
... It's to create a test case/file.
CS: Leave it overdue.
JS: This might be relevant to the rowindex, etc.
ACTION-1590: (Joseph/James) Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of
aria-owns is AXOwns array.
<clown> action-1590?
<trackbot> action-1590 -- James Craig to Confirm that the AXAPI
mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array -- due 2015-02-27 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[18]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1590
[18] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1590
JS: I sent email to James.
... This is about if you use aria-owns, the AX API mapping is
the AXLinkedUIElements array.
... I happened to be testing something else and discovered
there's an AXOwns array.
... So I've emailed James to get confirmation.
<clown> AXLinkedUIElements
Placeholder discussion
BG: Have you followed the discussion on the list.
RS: I haven't had time yet.
JS: I've seen it, but I haven't made up my mind yet.
RS: WCAG says you should not use it as a label.
BG: What's messing up my testing is that placeholder is in the
name calculation before title.
... So if you have both title and placeholder, the placeholder
is used; not the title.
JS: I'm guessing Steve based this on observing what happens in
the practice. (?)
BG: But in the accessibility tree, even when the placeholder
text is gone, the label remains the placeholder.
<joanie_>
[19]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/01
32.html
[19] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 24 March 2015 20:20:18 UTC