- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 16:19:50 -0500
- To: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
27 Jan 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Bryan_Garaventa, Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter,
Jason_Kiss, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Regrets
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ACTION-1569: (Joseph/Jason) Update re: status of
section on AAPI differences.
2. [5]ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support
section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
3. [6]ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) How to map aria-describedy
when CSS display:none.
4. [7]ACTION-1546/1544: (David/Cynthia) How to expose
rowgroup role for IA2 and UIA.
5. [8]ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for
aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize.
6. [9]ACTION-1553/ISSUE-692: (Joseph) ATK/AT-SPI mapping
for role="searchbox".
7. [10]ACTION-1554/ISSUE-692: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for
role="searchbox".
8. [11]ACTION-1553/ISSUE-692: (Joseph) ATK/AT-SPI mapping
for role="searchbox".
9. [12]ACTION-1556/ISSUE-692: (David) MSAA/IA2 mapping
for role="searchbox".
10. [13]ACTION-1555/ISSUE-692: (James) AX API mapping for
role="searchbox"
11. [14]ACTION-1562/ISSUE-693: (Joseph) ATK/AT-SPI mapping
for role="switch".
12. [15]ACTION-1564/ISSUE-693: (David) MSAA/IA2 mapping
for role="switch".
13. [16]ACTION-1563/ISSUE-693: (James) AX API mapping for
role="switch".
14. [17]Reviewing the SVG mapping document
* [18]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 27 January 2015
<scribe> agenda: this
<joanie> wait
<joanie> scribe: joanie
ACTION-1569: (Joseph/Jason) Update re: status of section on AAPI
differences.
<clown> action-1569?
<trackbot> action-1569 -- Jason Kiss to Create a section that
describes AAPI differences -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1569
[19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1569
JK: In terms of W3C, I'm on a few working groups.
... I am also the representative of the New Zealand government.
... I agreed to help work on the Accessibility API mappings
beginning several years ago.
... I've been working on this document, but my time is
constrained to four hours per week, though I wish it were more.
... I don't have in depth knowledge of all the Accessibility
APIs, but I'm happy to do whatever editorial and other such
tasks I can.
<clown> issue-540?
<trackbot> issue-540 -- Should the UAIG have a section to
describe the API differences -- open
<trackbot> [20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/540
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/540
<clown>
[21]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.h
tml#accessible-name-and-description-mapping
[21]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#accessible-name-and-description-mapping
JK: The mappings for name and description sort of switched,
with description being exposed as AX Help.
... I raised this issue, and it was explained to me.
... But I'm still wondering if the accessible name,
description, help text should be explained further in the spec.
... Another issue is how ATK and AT-SPI related to one another.
... I noticed that a note has been added to the Core Mapping
spec, which is cool.
... I'm wondering what the scope of the note I'm working on
should be.
... I'm working on comparing the APIs and looking for any
potential areas of confusion.
... I'm also thinking there may be additional differences of
interest.
... But for me to work on this, I need more input from people
with knowledge of the specific APIs.
... Some of these differences have to do with how user agents
implement or treat the APIs.
... One example is Mozilla's use of a string valie in VARIANT
in MSAA.
<jkiss> use of a string value in VARIANT
<jkiss> in MSAA
<jkiss>
[22]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#us
e-of-msaa-variant-by-some-user-agents
[22]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#use-of-msaa-variant-by-some-user-agents
DB: I'm happy that Jason is looking into this, beyond just the
mappings.
JK: I just posted a link to the section in the Mapping document
where this came up.
... Cynthia said Mozilla is doing this to expose information
when it cannot be exposed via other API.
JS: I read they just use the IA2 role now; not accrole.
<davidb> Mozilla bug:
[23]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798492
[23] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798492
JK: Another issue is the use of the DOM by ATs.
JS: Certainly true of ChromeVox (use of the DOM).
JK: That's broader than how the APIs work, however.
... Hearing from others about interesting differences worth
including in a Note would be good.
... My interest is that I rely upon these documents and I
suspect there would be others who look at these documents and
would find it really helpful to have an explanation of the
higher-level differences between these APIs.
JS: Sounds ok to me.
<clown>
[24]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.h
tml#accessible-name-and-description-mapping
[24]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#accessible-name-and-description-mapping
JS: The URL above is in the accessible name calculation
document. And the column for AX API is rather lengthy.
JK: I was looking at that. And for ATK/AT-SPI the document
suggests that there is not an accessible name property.
JS: My recollection is that you have to call an atk method
atk_object_get_name()
JS: There may be a property there, but you cannot see it.
<jkiss>
[25]https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#Atk
Object--accessible-name
[25]
https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#AtkObject--accessible-name
JK: There (above) is the accessible name property. It's a
readwrite property.
... I couldn't find that in AT-SPI
<clown>
[26]https://developer.gnome.org/libatspi/2.13/AtspiAccessible.h
tml
[26] https://developer.gnome.org/libatspi/2.13/AtspiAccessible.html
JD: I will verify that there is not a property for the name.
JK: Perhaps that's more detailed than is worth it?
JS: That's more of an AT Vendor question. Do you need that
level of detail?
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: As an AT developer, I don't go to W3C specs, but I go to
the AAPI documentation for that platform.
JK: That makes sense, but it's still worthwhile to me.
... I am not a browser implementor, nor an AT developer.
... I could just go to all of the AAPI documentation and read
it.
... Or, get a summary of the differences in the W3C documents.
JD: I was more answering Joseph's question, "what does an AT
vendor need to know"?
... So, keep the audience in mind.
JK: Yes, sure.
... I could draft a section, and include the items I think
belong.
... And then see if others want to add info to that.
... And then bring it back to this group.
JD: I think it's a good idea.
... I would be happy to read the draft.
<joanie> scribe: joanie
JS: I think the next step is for you to draft it and put it
Somewhere(tm).
JK: Where?
... I was thinking of adding it under Section 1.1 which
discusses Accessibility APIs.
... Like under a new 1.1.1. That states there are differences.
... This would then follow with examples illustrating these
differences.
... I work this up. Should I added it to the latest draft in
github?
JS: I'd prefer you branch, either according to the action or
the issue.
... You decide a branch name based on the issue, action, or
both, to ensure we know what the branch is about.
JK: I'll do that.
ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs
DOM tree.
<clown> action-842?
<trackbot> action-842 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a diagram to
support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree -- due 2014-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[27]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
[27] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
JS: Cynthia, this action came due about two weeks ago.
... This is from 2011.
CS: So Michael Cooper and I made some progrss at TPAC.
... I have a hand-drawn version that needs to be turned into
another format.
... I've not yet had an opportunity to do so.
... Give me to April 1st or the closest to our meeting.
JS: March 31st it is.
CS: I took digital photos too. :)
ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) How to map aria-describedy when CSS
display:none.
<clown> action-1104?
<trackbot> action-1104 -- Cynthia Shelly to Define what the
accessibility API mapping is for UIA on aria-describedby in
section 5.5.1 table when the element does not exist in the
accessibility tree such as when css: display:none applies --
due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[28]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
[28] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1104
JS: You got some emails about this (Cynthia).
<clown>
[29]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.h
tml#accessible-name-and-description-mapping
[29]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#accessible-name-and-description-mapping
JS: That mapping table I brought up before (URL above), if you
look at UIA, there's nothing explaining what you do if the
objects are not in the accessibility tree.
CS: This is an ongoing discussion. I need to follow up on this.
Please give me two weeks.
JS: February 10th.
JK: You noted that UIA doesn't explain what to do if it's not
in the accessibility tree. It seems to me that this is lacking
for others as well.
JS: Not for IA2/ATK.
... So IA2 and ATK have both a way to provide the string and to
provide the object.
... UIA doesn't have a means to provide the string.
CS: I'm trying to convince people we need this means.
ACTION-1546/1544: (David/Cynthia) How to expose rowgroup role for IA2
and UIA.
<clown> action-1546?
<trackbot> action-1546 -- David Bolter to Make sure the
rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[30]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
[30] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
<clown> action-1544?
<trackbot> action-1544 -- Cynthia Shelly to Document rowgroup
mappings for ie 11 for both uia express and uia -- due
2014-12-23 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[31]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1544
[31] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1544
JS: GNOME decided to not expose that role at all.
CS: I think we do something with it.
<clown>
[32]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-rowgroup
[32]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: The current mappings are above.
... Apple doesn't map it either.
... And IA2 exposes it as role group, and UIA as group.
RS: Firefox put it in there, but we're not sure why.
... I don't think it's a show stopper, because I don't think
the ATs pay much attention to it.
CS: I haven't had a chance to look. Please give me a week.
ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with
only some explicit aria-setsize.
<clown> action-1373?
<trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case
for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly
on some but not all elements. -- due 2014-12-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[33]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
[33] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
CS: This one's harder. Give me four weeks.
JS: It's writing a test case.
CS: It's more than one test case; it's a bunch of different
scenarios.
... I know there are bugs, which is why I made that action in
the first place.
... Four weeks is CSUN, so why don't we make it three.
ACTION-1553/ISSUE-692: (Joseph) ATK/AT-SPI mapping for
role="searchbox".
JS: This is more of an update.
<clown> action-1553?
<trackbot> action-1553 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide
ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 --
CLOSED
<trackbot>
[34]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553
[34] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553
<clown>
[35]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-searchbox
[35]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-searchbox
JS: We discussed this last week. We have a new role in ARIA:
searchbox.
... And we got the mappings for ATK/AT-SPI. And I managed to
change the document to add the role, but only ATK/AT-SPI has a
mapping. I still need them for the other platform mappings for
this role.
<clown> action-1554?
<trackbot> action-1554 -- Cynthia Shelly to Provide UIA mapping
for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[36]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1554
[36] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1554
ACTION-1554/ISSUE-692: (Cynthia) UIA mapping for role="searchbox".
CS: Give me two weeks so that I can verify how to map it.
... Is this a landmark?
JS: No, search is a landmark.
RS: This is an entry.
JS: This is why ATK mapped it this way.
... But as I understand it, they are going to expand their
roles.
RS: The easy way to do this is map it to a text field and then
have ATs look at an attribute to see if it's a searchbox.
(Group discusses object attributes)
ACTION-1553/ISSUE-692: (Joseph) ATK/AT-SPI mapping for
role="searchbox".
<clown> action-1553?
<trackbot> action-1553 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide
ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 --
CLOSED
<trackbot>
[37]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553
[37] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553
<clown>
[38]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-switch
[38]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-switch
ACTION-1556/ISSUE-692: (David) MSAA/IA2 mapping for role="searchbox".
ACTION-1555/ISSUE-692: (James) AX API mapping for role="searchbox"
ACTION-1562/ISSUE-693: (Joseph) ATK/AT-SPI mapping for role="switch".
JS: ATK/AT-SPI2 mapped it to toggle button.
ACTION-1564/ISSUE-693: (David) MSAA/IA2 mapping for role="switch".
RS: I'd do this as an object attribute just like with
searchbox.
<clown> action-1563?
<trackbot> action-1563 -- James Craig to Provide AX API mapping
for role="switch" -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[39]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1563
[39] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1563
CS: I'll take a look at this.
ACTION-1563/ISSUE-693: (James) AX API mapping for role="switch".
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[40]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
[40] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
Reviewing the SVG mapping document
RS: The SVG accessibility taskforce has gone through this
already.
... I think it would be good if this group could look at it as
well.
JS: What sort of time frame?
RS: It's a first working draft. I don't expect the comments to
be thorough.
... If you have anything significant, I'd love to hear it.
... We want to get this one and the HTML one out in February.
JK: I think it's possible. I'm unavailable for a couple of
weeks in February, but I think the HTML document will be ready.
... Some addition fixes to leverage off of the core, similar to
what SVG is doing, might be useful.
JS: I still object to the use of none.
... SVG animate element, for example.
... Do you mean the actual "none" role, or that there is no
role?
RS: There is a "none" role and a none (for no role).
... animate doesn't get mapped at all.
JK: It might be mistakenly linked to role="none"
<cyns> have to run to another meeting
JK: Should it say "no role"?
RS: It could, but it is essentially the same.
JS: To me that means it's there for presentation purposes.
JK: To avoid the ambiguity....
RS: But it has the same effect.
(Discussion of validity of mapping it to a pane)
RS: I will raise an issue.
JS: There is a possibility that something with role="none" can
gain focus.
RS: But that's an error.
JS: It's an author error to put the presentational role on
something which is focusable.
RS: Every single drawing is persistent in memory. Can you
imagine if you had an accessible object for every single item?
The tree would be huge.
JS: Could an author put a tab index on an SVG element so that
an AT could walk through the parts of the diagram?
RS: Yes, but you'd want to put it on an element.
... It shouldn't be mapped, but if it becomes focusable then
you have to?
JS: Yes.
RS: Then I have to put something in the spec because it's an
error condition.
... I still want this to be none, which means there should be
no mapping.
... I think what we have to do is have rules about mapping
elements with tab index.
... I will make an editorial note.
(Group discusses the specifics)
<clown> <img role="presentaion">
<clown> <img role="presntation" tabindex="0">
JS: the first of the above won't be mapped; the second will.
... My read is that IF it needs to be in the accessibility
tree, treat it as a pane. Otherwise don't worry about it.
RS: I'm going to make a note and create an issue for my spec.
<clown>
[41]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#in
clude_elements
[41]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
JS: The exceptions to not exposing it are described at the URL
above.
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 27 January 2015 21:20:27 UTC