- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:15:24 -0500
- To: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2015/01/13-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13 Jan 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/01/13-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa,
Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Regrets
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie, clown
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support
section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
2. [5]ACTION-1544/1545/1546: (Cynthia/Joanie/David) How
to expose rowgroup role.
3. [6]ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support
section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
4. [7]ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for
aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize.
5. [8]ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate minimal
javascript at-spi2 test automation.
6. [9]ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss role="group"
at caucus telcon.
7. [10]Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
8. [11]Action-1320
* [12]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 13 January 2015
<clown> agenda: this
<joanie> scribenick:joanie
ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs
DOM tree.
ACTION-1544/1545/1546: (Cynthia/Joanie/David) How to expose rowgroup
role.
<clown> action-1545?
<trackbot> action-1545 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Make sure the
rowgroup mapping for atk/atspi is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[13]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1545
[13] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1545
JS: Likely, the only one here who can say anything is Joanie.
RS: Is this where we decide if it goes to section?
JS: Might be. This didn't used to be mapped at all.
<clown> issue-635?
<trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup
are correct -- open
<trackbot> [14]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
[14] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
JD: Why would we want to map this? We don't for HTML.
JS: I think at some point Mozilla decided to map it to group in
IA2 at least.
RS: I don't know why; it just happened.
... Actually, it *may* be that Freedom Scientific asked for
everything in the DOM be in the accessibility tree so they
don't have to keep going back to the DOM.
... They want to try to get rid of that.
JS: The point of the accessibility tree is to not include
things that are needed.
<clown>
[15]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
wGroup
[15] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#rowGroup
JD: I'd like it to be not mapped.
JS: It's currently mapped to ROLE_PANEL.
<clown> scribenick: clown
JD: Panel is a generic group of stuff.
... You need a fairly predicatable accessibiltiy tree.
RS: What if we take role="section", and make it non-abstract.
... And then add sections to the tree.
JD: Tables do not contain sections, unless they are in a table
cell.
RS: There is a <rowgroup> in html.
... If there is a need to map that to a role.
... Then, map it to a seciton, a generic container that has no
real meaning.
JD: But a div is a block of text.
... I don't want this in a table heirarchy.
... I think the correct mapping of rowgroup is "not mapped" on
ATK/AT-SPI.
RS: I don't want <div>s in the hierarchy if they are
meaningless.
JS: A <div> is a generic container.
RS: You should just look at such <div>s and discard them.
... What does AX does this?
JS/JD: it's not mapped.
RS: We should ask Alex why rowgroup was mapped by FF.
<joanie>
[16]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
[16] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
JD: I have updated my action to say that rowgroup is not mapped
for ATK/AT-SPI.
[17]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
[17] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
[18]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el
-tbody
[18] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-tbody
<joanie> scribenick: joanie
JS: According to the above, (reads mappings for tbody)
... So why is rowgroup in ARIA?
<clown> [19]http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#rowgroup
[19] http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#rowgroup
RS: Alex. So people could create custom grids.
JS: I can see it for treegrids, but grids?
... I have my answer to ATK/AT-SPI2. Assign the action to me,
Joanie, and I'll change the mapping
... I'll try to do this in the next week, so January 20th.
ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs
DOM tree.
ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with
only some explicit aria-setsize.
JS: Cynthia is not here.
ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate minimal javascript at-spi2 test
automation.
JD: I've not had time to get to this yet. Sorry!
... I'm pushing this back to 3 March as it's a nice-to-have.
<clown> action-1533?
<trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and
possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener
with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-03-03 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533
ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss role="group" at caucus telcon.
<clown> action-1515?
<trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss
issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2014-12-09 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[21]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
[21] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
RS: I was on the call, I'm trying.
JS: This was set to Dec 9th, so I thought we should re-raise
it.
RS: I think Cynthia said we should get back to her in a month,
so February.
JS: February 24th?
RS: If we can have these things be role of section. Then HTML5
section maps to section. Unless you put a label on it, you map
it to role region.
<clown>
[22]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-group
[22]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group
RS: Div then would also map to this. It makes it very clean.
There's some structure preserved.
JS: We're talking about the group role.
RS: On the Mac, AXGroup would then not be for every single div,
etc.
JS: So you don't need to fix the mapping for group, but
everything else that maps to group?
RS: On the Mac, yes.
<clown> issue-678?
<trackbot> issue-678 -- What is the ideal mapping for the aria
group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with
the generic group role on AAPIs, e.g., AXAPI and UIA. -- open
<trackbot> [23]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
[23] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
JD: I'm not sure it will be quite that straightforward on the
Mac, but I agree that the approach makes sense.
RS: We need to have a chat with James about this.
RS and JS: Maybe we can discuss this at an ARIA call with him.
Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1:
[24]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
[24] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
<clown> action-1320?
<trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider
mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of
aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2014-12-23
-- OPEN
<trackbot>
[25]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
[25] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
Action-1320
JS: This was my attempt at coming up with a compromise.
... Firefox didn't want to take aria-hidden:false that it
should be exposed in the accessibility tree if it had no
display properties.
... The use case I provided at the time was that it was a
better way to accomplish the off-screen stuff.
<clown>
[26]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014JanMar/
0001.html
[26]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014JanMar/0001.html
JS: (reads text from above link)
RS: I've seen where aria-hidden is of value when it's true.
JS: Do you have any problem with a mismatch between the display
properties and aria-hidden?
RS: You do have a mismatch already.
JS: They use an object attribute, but they don't remove it from
the accessibility tree.
RS: ATs ignore it when they see aria-hidden="true". I don't
know about false.
... Want me to ask Freedom Scientific?
JS: Sure
BG: Steve and James want a literal opposite of
aria-hidden="true".
... So when you have something with display:none,
aria-hidden="false" is still exposed to ATs.
... JAWS is already doing this. At least for IE.
JS: To follow-up, Firefox doesn't want to do it. So I asked
them to treat it like off-screen positioning.
<clown>
[27]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue-688/aria/aria.html#aria-hi
dden
[27] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue-688/aria/aria.html#aria-hidden
JD: My problem with aria-hidden="false" is that it essentially
forces screen readers to have some sort of alternative
presentation.
... Because any screen reader which is relying upon presenting
the content to the user as the user navigates via native
user-agent support will never encounter aria-hidden="false"
content.
... In the case of off-screen content, it's just a sad hack in
my opinion.
... As soon as we bless aria-hidden="false", it's like we're
saying it's valid and appropriate to have special,
separate-but-equal content.
<clown> issue-688?
<trackbot> issue-688 -- Aria-hidden=false is ambiguous
regarding inheritance to descendant elements -- raised
<trackbot> [28]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/688
[28] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/688
JD: And if that is done, screen-readers that do not provide a
separate-but-equal rendering will seem "broken" wrt the spec.
... Thus you are forcing non-native interaction to be
implemented for all screen readers wishing to be conformant.
... As a result, I find aria-hidden="false" objectionable. It
is NOT the same as aria-hidden="true".
... For what it's worth.
RS: Do I have an action item to content Freedom Scientific or
not?
JS: Ask if they want it offscreen or not in the tree.
... Offscreen is things like list items which are scrolled off
screen.
... Another option is negative coordinates, so the sighted user
never sees it. But the AT does.
BG: The use case for off-screen is the skip links.
... In that case it needs to be in the tree.
JS: I'll create an action some time tomorrow for you (Rich)
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 13 January 2015 21:16:01 UTC