- From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 16:11:43 -0500
- To: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Link: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-aapi-minutes.html
Plain text follows:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
10 Feb 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-aapi-irc
Attendees
Present
Cynthia_Shelly, David_Bolter, Joanmarie_Diggs,
Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Regrets
Chair
Joseph_Scheuhammer
Scribe
joanie
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed
aria related states.
2. [5]Time frame for 1.1
3. [6]ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed
aria related states.
4. [7]ISSUE-612/ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Status of GNOME
bugzilla 727453.
5. [8]ACTION-1309: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIA Express and UIA
mappings for aria-colindex and aria-rowindex.
6. [9]ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) UIA mappings for role
presentation in tables and lists.
7. [10]ACTION-1546: (David) Make sure the rowgroup
mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate.
8. [11]ACTION-1309: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIA Express and UIA
mappings for aria-colindex and aria-rowindex.
9. [12]ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) UIA mappings for role
presentation in tables and lists.
* [13]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 10 February 2015
<clown> agenda: this
<clown> agneda+ ACTION-1444: (Joseph) Update ATK/AT-SPI2
mapping of role presentation in tables and lists.
<scribe> scribe: joanie
ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states.
<clown> action-980?
<trackbot> action-980 -- David Bolter to Define mappings for
managed aria related states: aria-setsize, aria-posinset,
aria-level, focused, focusable with reference to section 5.5
bullet 1 of the UAIG. -- due 2015-01-27 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[14]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
[14] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/980
<davidb> alex is taking all of mine
<davidb> i suspect he'll answer before next week
The scribe is having a hard time hearing.
<davidb> DB: most of these are ia2 mapping things
JS: Looking at a note in the action, the next step is to come
up with the list of managed states.
... This is why I think it's broader than IA2.
... Mappings are already in there.
... What we need is text that says what managed states are, why
they are necessary....
... Because the current text in 5.5 bullet 1 is too vague, as I
understand it.
<clown>
[15]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#st
atePropertyMappingGeneralRules
[15]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#statePropertyMappingGeneralRules
JS: It's near to the above.
... (Reads from the text in the document)
... "Etc.?"
... In other words, what are these states.
DB: Alex is going to take this on.
JS: My only concern is that this is not just MSAA or IA2; it's
for all the platforms.
... So there has to be agreement amongst the browser vendors.
... I'm not sure you can do that with the action, but you
should come and talk to us.
Time frame for 1.1
RS: I think it's probably going to be closer to the first half
of 2016.
... The group has made a lot of progress in the last month.
ACTION-980: (David) Define mappings for managed aria related states.
ISSUE-612/ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Status of GNOME bugzilla 727453.
<clown> issue-612?
<trackbot> issue-612 -- Review ia2/atk rule in group position.
should this really determine level based on aria-owns chain.
see uaig:
[16]http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria-implementation/#mapping_addit
ional_position and test case 69:
[17]https://www.w3.org/wai/pf/testharness/testresults?tes --
open
[16]
http://www.w3.org/wai/pf/aria-implementation/#mapping_additional_position
[17] https://www.w3.org/wai/pf/testharness/testresults?tes
<trackbot> [18]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/612
[18] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/612
<clown> action-1409?
<trackbot> action-1409 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Monitor progress
of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position,
level, and other api be added
([19]https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453) -- due
2015-04-07 -- OPEN
[19] https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=727453)
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1409
JD: Life being life, this is not going to make it into GNOME
3.16. Happily, release cycles are six-months long. I'll tackle
this next cycle.
... It's now due 7 April.
ACTION-1309: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIA Express and UIA mappings for
aria-colindex and aria-rowindex.
JS: Cynthia is not here.
ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) UIA mappings for role presentation in tables
and lists.
JS: Cynthia is not here.
<clown> action-1546?
<trackbot> action-1546 -- David Bolter to Make sure the
rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 --
OPEN
<trackbot>
[21]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
[21] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
ACTION-1546: (David) Make sure the rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is
accurate.
JS: We need mappings for the rowgroup role for MSAA/IA2.
... David was going to look at this.
<clown>
[22]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-rowgroup
[22]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: We have mappings for ATK and AX API.
... We don't have UIA done either.
... ATK and AX API both say "not mapped."
DB: This is one of my actions which Alex is also going to do.
Nothing else to report.
... Alex is the IA2 maintainer.
JS: It currently says ROLE_SYSTEM_GROUP
RS: We have a discussion on the ARIA call to follow up on the
container items.
JS: Yes, we're talking about rowgroup, but the current mapping
is ROLE_SYSTEM_GROUP for IA2.
... That doesn't strike me as correct, but I'm not an IA2
expert.
RS: That is what passed when we did our tests, isn't it?
JS: I have a vague feeling that it didn't pass and that we then
revised the test.
RS: Right because the rowgroup wasn't exposed and now it is.
... If I remember the discussion.... David, why did you map
this?
DB: I don't remember.
RS: So we're all wondering if it needs to stay this way.
... I know OS X doesn't map it. What does IE do?
<clown>
[23]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-rowgroup
[23]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
JS: Currently the mapping table says "group"
RS: Did that pass?
JS: I don't know.
RS: (Reads from mapping)
<clown>
[24]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsu
ite_id=1&testcase_id=56
[24]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=56
CS: It depends how it was tested.
... I don't think we do anything with this.
<clown> davidb, it's "not mapped"
CS: Grids are somewhat messy. I don't have an answer right now.
JS: I found a test case. Expected result is generally has no
role.
... That's test case 56.
<clown>
[25]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite
_id=1&testcase_id=56
[25]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=56
JS: Some passes, some failures (in the results)
... Test report link is above.
... (Reads results)
<clown> <div role="rowgroup>
CS: The test file uses a div?
JS: Yes.
CS: It's entirely likely that IE is ignoring that role.
... Because "group" is the role of div.
JS: James Craig passed it on Safari with AXGroup.
(Group concludes we need to revisit this test and its results)
RS: I think we're at the point that we need to decide what we
want to do.
... If it's not going to provide anything of value, it
shouldn't map.
... We can all fix it. We can pull it out of Firefox. Or....
... It's confusing. If you put a section role in the middle of
a grid, it's goofy.
... The problem happens if you put a label on it, though I
don't know why you would do that.
CS: It almost feels like a property. I know it's a role, but it
shows membership.
... UIA does a lot with properties, rather than roles.
JS: It corresponds to elements like thead and tbody.
<clown>
[26]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el
-tbody
[26] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-tbody
JS: These map to group. See above link.
... ATK doesn't have an accessible though. That's consistent
with the core.
... MSAA/IA2 also doesn't have a mapping, for tbody.
RS: I don't see why we need a mapping.
CS: So you're saying we shouldn't have an accessible for this?
And what would that do for tables that have them?
... I know there are some people in certain
accessibility-related circles who find these useful.
... So we might wish to get wider feedback on this.
RS: If you tell them they aren't mapped, will they know what
that means?
CS: Uncertain.
... (Reiterates need to get wider feedback)
RS: I see table being used less and less because it doesn't
tend to flow well.
... If you want to run this by WCAG we certainly can.
CS: Michael is in WCAG.
JS: Is it worth bringing up at the full ARIA meeting?
RS: We could.
JS: We can add it to the overall "group" issue and discussion.
RS: Give me an issue related to not mapping rowgroup, tbody,
and thead.
<clown> issue: Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in AAPIs
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-700 - Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and
thead in aapis. Please complete additional details at
<[27]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700/edit>.
[27] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700/edit
DB: You want it taken out of the tree?
JS: Yes.
RS: If somone puts a tabindex on it, what do we want to call
it?
CS: If you put that on the object that's already in the tree,
what happens?
... If you put role="rowgroup" on something, does it act like
presentation, or is it ignored?
RS: What would that hurt if it's taken out of the tree?
CS: It's weird if people think they're adding semantics (via
the role), but we're taking it out of the tree/ignoring it.
RS: And we'd fallback on native host language semantics.
CS: It will still be there in the DOM and object attributes.
<clown> [28]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
[28] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
RS: Thanks for the issue, please also give me an action.
<clown> ACTION: rich to discuss issue-700 in ARIA task force
meeting. [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1578 - Discuss issue-700 in aria task
force meeting. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-02-17].
<clown> action-1578
<trackbot> action-1578 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss
issue-700 in aria task force meeting. -- due 2015-02-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[30]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578
[30] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578
ACTION-1309: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIA Express and UIA mappings for
aria-colindex and aria-rowindex.
action-1309
<trackbot> action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best
place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress
and uia. -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[31]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
[31] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
<clown> action-1309?
<trackbot> action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best
place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress
and uia. -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[32]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
[32] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309
JS: This is a hot topic on the list, where to put aria-colindex
and aria-rowindex in the markup.
... Some people say on the individual cells, some on the rows.
... I think what this action really is, is asking what the
mapping would be.
... But maybe we're premature
JD: I know what the mapping is for ATK/AT-SPI2 regardless of
where it belongs in the spec.
... But I don't know if this is true for others.
JS: I was hesitant because of all the discussion on the list
about the ARIA property.
CS: This is kind of related to the last one (grids and tables).
... We do have a table pattern now, so I need to look and see
if they make sense in there.
... This one we have to move out further. After CSUN.
JS: I'll put it for the 10th of March.
ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) UIA mappings for role presentation in tables
and lists.
<clown> action-1444?
<trackbot> action-1444 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Update
atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists.
-- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[33]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444
[33] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444
<clown> action-1445?
<trackbot> action-1445 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the
ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. --
due 2015-01-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[34]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1445
[34] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1445
JS: I did some related work on this.
<clown>
[35]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-presentation
[35]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation
JS: The above URL has what I did.
... For UIA, I put "expose using the text pattern"
<clown> If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose
using the text pattern. In particular, this applies to cells
within a table or grid with role="presentation", and to list
items within a list with role="presentation".
JS: I added a sentence about the table and list.
... So the grid cells and list items become objects that expose
the text pattern.
CS: If they are in the tree.
... That's confusing, because presentation takes them out of
the tree.
JS: It takes the grid out, but not the cell, right?
<clown> If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose as
ROLE_SECTION. In particular, this applies to cells within a
table or grid with role="presentation", and to list items
within a list with role="presentation".
CS: OK, I think this is right, though it is kind of confusing.
... It's not the wording that is confusing; it's the concept.
JS: (Reads the text associated with ATK)
... All the cells become ROLE_SECTION
CS: I don't think we do that (treat them like divs, so they're
all separate)
... What do you think is better?
JD: We did this deliberately for ATK.
... The idea is that they are separate, distinct text objects
that should not be run together by the screen reader.
CS: I don't have strong feelings either way.
JS: Before they were a giant blob of text and people
complained.
RS: We heard the same.
CS: Ok, then make them groups.
<clown> If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose
using the GROUP role, using the text pattern.
(Group discussed above proposed text)
<clown> <table role="presentation"> …
JS: If you have the above, what happens to the table itself?
<clown>
[36]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_i
d=1
[36] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=1
RS: I think we have a test for this in the test suite.
CS: I'm not seeing anything that's specifically a table.
... (Makes a quick test)
JS: We have close to 900 tests, but not a table with
role="presentation" on it.
CS: I created a file. It looks like IE is removing it
altogether, but not its children.
JS: Can you mail that test file to us.
CS: Sure.
<clown>
[37]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ro
le-map-presentation
[37]
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: rich to discuss issue-700 in ARIA task force
meeting. [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-aapi-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 10 February 2015 21:12:21 UTC