Re: [Filter Effects][css3-transforms] Using MathML for formulas

Thanks for the additional information.  Certainly MathJax could be  
made to produce the content of the <details> tag that you have  
specified.

But I do have a couple of concerns about your suggestion.  I'm not  
sure <figure> is the right tag for this, since the documentation at

	http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/grouping-content.html#the-figure-element

suggests that "The element can thus be used to annotate illustrations,  
diagrams, photos, code listings, etc, that are referred to from the  
main content of the document, but that could, without affecting the  
flow of the document, be moved away from that primary content, e.g. to  
the side of the page, to dedicated pages, or to an appendix."  I'm not  
sure that most displayed equations satisfy the condition that they  
could be removed (or moved to an appendix) without affecting the flow  
of the document.

Also this would only work for displayed equations, so would not be an  
appropriate form for in-line equations.  You are probably not worried  
about in-line math, but I need to be concerned about both forms.

As for the <details> issue, my understanding is that <details> isn't  
implemented in all browsers yet, so I guess you are planning to use a  
javascript helper script to handle that.  One thing I don't  
understand, however, is how this will prevent screen readers from  
trying to read the MathML itself (or MathJax's HTML rendering of it)  
in addition to reading both the prose version of the math in the  
<summary> in addition to the MathJax-generated text intended for the  
screen readers.  Finally, it seems to me that a screen reader should  
NOT read the contents of the <details> tag other than the <summary>  
when it is closed, and would read the contents only when it is opened,  
so this doesn't seem to me to be the right way to get a version to AT  
software.  Although screen readers don't currently handle <details>  
that way, I expect that in the future they will, and I wouldn't want  
your documents to break at that point.

Just my two cent's worth.

Davide


On Jun 6, 2012, at 8:18 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:

> Hi Davide,
> I usually test with JAWS/Orca/NVDA/VoiceOver.
>
> I am unsure about the suitability of aria relationship attributes in  
> this case as I mentioned in my reply to Cameron.
> I am looking at methods to provide the prose form of the equations,  
> I think it is something that should be available to all users, but  
> not displayed by default.
> I am considereing the use of the HTML5 figure element for the math  
> container and the details element to provide a container for the  
> prose form, will provide more details later, but this is an example:
>
> <figure>
>   <figcaption>caption for math</figcaption>
>    <math>
> <mrow>
>         <mi>x</mi>
>         <mo>=</mo>
>         <mfrac>
>           <mrow>
>             <mo>-</mo>
>             <mi>b</mi>
>             <mo>±</mo>
>             <msqrt>
>               <mrow>
>                 <msup>
>                   <mi>b</mi>
>                   <mn>2</mn>
>                 </msup>
>                 <mo>-</mo>
>                 <mn>4</mn>
>                 <mi>a</mi>
>                 <mi>c</mi>
>               </mrow>
>             </msqrt>
>           </mrow>
>           <mrow>
>             <mn>2</mn>
>             <mi>a</mi>
>           </mrow>
>         </mfrac>
>       </mrow>
>       </math>
>
> <details><summary>prose version of math</summary>
> <p>(dummy text -hopefully content can be dynamically supplied via  
> MathJax) square root of, 1 + square root of, 1 minus x cubed, end  
> root, end root</p?
> </details>
>  </figure>
>
> If you are unfamiliar with the details element you can see how it  
> works here: http://mathiasbynens.be/demo/html5-details-jquery
>
>
> regards
> steve
>
> On 5 June 2012 20:31, Davide P. Cervone <dpvc@union.edu> wrote:
> Steve:
>
> Can you say what readers you have experimented with?  I have used  
> JAWS, Read&Write Gold, and Apple's VoiceOver.  VoiceOver has pretty  
> good support for ARIA tags, JAWS seems to have some, an R&WG seems  
> to ignore them entirely.  This is part of the reason for my original  
> claim that screen readers vary widely in their implementation of the  
> standards.  It is also part of the reason that it will be difficult  
> to have a single static solution that works for all users, and why  
> dynamic production of the markup by something like MathJax may be  
> the best alternative in the short term (until there is better  
> uniformity among AT software).
>
> Davide
>
>
> On May 30, 2012, at 2:21 AM, Steve Faulkner wrote:
>
>> Hi Cameron,
>>
>> There is MathSpeak http://www.gh-mathspeak.com/examples/grammar- 
>> rules/
>>
>>
>> in regards to adding ARIA to MathML, from limited testing I have  
>> conducted it does not work currently.
>> I am guessing you are talking about adding it to the <math> element?
>>
>>
>> regards
>> Steve
>>
>> On 30 May 2012 01:48, Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au> wrote:
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> Do you know of any standards for the reading of math as a linear  
>> stream of words?  In the meantime, before Peter's MathJax extension  
>> is ready, I would like to just add some aria-label="" attributes  
>> manually to the MathML in the SVG spec.  I could take a guess at  
>> what is an appropriate reading for the formulae, but if there's a  
>> standard or guide for producing this I'd like to follow it.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com | www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -  
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>