Re: HTML 5 Accessibility Mappings

hi dave,

the issue i see is that there is no agreed method to expose via an
accessibility API, the many elements in HTML that do not map onto either
ARIA roles or those defined by the various APIs. I think it It would be good
to have a mechanism by which any AT could get the role info for any element
via the API in a clearly defined way.

Of course some elements don't need to be mapped as they are not presented as
part of the content, others it may be enough to expose them as a text or
grouping  role.

regards
Stevef

On 2 February 2011 19:47, David Bolter <david.bolter@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi Rich,
>
> Thanks. I want to hash this out for clarity and ideas.
>
> So I think one thing (call it "A") you are proposing is that the a web
> developer can do this:
>
> 1. <input type="checkbox" aria-posinset="5">
>
> aria-posinset is not listed in the "Global States and Properties", but the
> fact that this HTML element is in all other respects semantically equivalent
> to:
>
> 2. <div role="checkbox" aria-posinset="5">
>
> means we should allow the aria-posinset to work.
>
> I'm fine with A (and it should already work in gecko because we don't
> require the role attribute).
>
> The part of the proposal (call it "B") where we expose a role object
> attribute for 1 when there was no author supplied role attribute is the part
> I'm unsure about. It is this part I want a few AT vendor's feedback on. I'm
> fine with it pending positive feedback :)
>
> One advantage might be that if AT end up looking to the role object
> attribute first (before the enumerated desktop role), then we can have a
> greater path to extensibility*.
>
> * Note: sort of like how gecko already naughtily exposes a BSTR MSAA role
> for cases where there is no good enumerated role mapping. This is usually
> the element tag name.
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
>
> On 02/02/11 1:31 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
> Yes, we is the browser manufacturer. We are defining the HTML to API
> mappings.
>
> What I am saying is you have:
>
> <input type="checkbox"> this has an aria semantic of checkbox. So, simply
> pass the role="checkbox" name value pair in the object properties to the AT
>
> same for:
>
> <tr> this has an aria semantic of "row". So, simply pass the role="row"
> name value pair in the object properties to the AT
>
> However,
>
> For those elements that have NO ARIA equivalent like <details> pass the
> role="details" name value pair. In other words you pass the tag name as the
> role.
>
> I want to avoid requiring the author having to place roles on elements with
> equivalent pre-defined samantics and I want the AT not to have to inspect
> the role and the tag name.
>
> Does that help?
>
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> CTO Accessibility Software Group
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for David Bolter ---01/28/2011 01:04:06
> PM---Hi Rich, Gecko's exposure of the tag as an object attribute]David
> Bolter ---01/28/2011 01:04:06 PM---Hi Rich, Gecko's exposure of the tag as
> an object attribute predates ARIA so I'm
>
> From: David Bolter <david.bolter@gmail.com> <david.bolter@gmail.com>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>,
> wai-xtech@w3.org
> Date: 01/28/2011 01:04 PM
> Subject: Re: HTML 5 Accessibility Mappings
>  ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> Gecko's exposure of the tag as an object attribute predates ARIA so I'm not
> sure can remove it. I don't understand "for all HTML elements that don't
> have a pre-defined ARIA semantic we simply pass the role value as the tag
> name".
> Who is "we"? (The browser?)
> What does passing the role value mean?
> Did you mean 'tag name' or 'role attribute value'?
>
> Regarding the AT and author error, it is up to them whether they want to
> correct or not; gecko provides the info.
>
> If you are proposing AT look at the IA2 role object attribute and ignore
> the MSAA role, and if AT agree to this, I would support making changes to
> gecko to use the role object attribute as more than just the raw author
> supplied role attribute value, in a way I think you are describing.
>
> Cheers,
> D
>
> On 28/01/11 1:42 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
>    David,
>
>    The point being that today you need an ARIA role to be able to apply
>    aria attributes. Yet, HTML 5 defines default ARIA semantics for many of the
>    elements removing the need for the author to define an aria role to apply
>    the aria attributes that are applicable to that role. If the author
>    overrides the role using role="foo" then that replaces the role. So there is
>    no reason for the author to expose roles separately if for all HTML elements
>    that don't have a pre-defined ARIA semantic we simply pass the role value as
>    the tag name.
>
>    I don't see the value for providing the DOM element tag name and the
>    role attribute. Perhaps I am missing something. Are you asking the AT to
>    correct an author error?
>
>    What I am proposing would actually reduce the number of object
>    attributes as you don't need to pass the tag name and the role - just the
>    role.
>
>    Rich
>
>    Rich Schwerdtfeger
>    CTO Accessibility Software Group
>
>
>
>    From: David Bolter *<david.bolter@gmail.com>* <david.bolter@gmail.com>
>    To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
>    Cc: Steve Faulkner *<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>*<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>,
>    *wai-xtech@w3.org* <wai-xtech@w3.org>
>    Date: 01/25/2011 03:12 PM
>    Subject: Re: HTML 5 Accessibility Mappings
>     ------------------------------
>
>
>
>    Hi Rich,
>
>    Thanks for posting this.
>
>    Note gecko exposes a 'tag', 'element-name' pair already so the
>    (corrected) #3 would imply duplicated object attributes. I think I would
>    like to expose the role and the element name separately so that AT can
>    decide on its own workarounds. I'm open for debate on that.
>
>    I'm not how "What this does for the author is it allows the author to
>    supply ARIA states and properties to elements that do not have a role
>    supplied but depend on the native ARIA semantics as defined by the HTML 5
>    specification." is strictly dependent on what we expose via the object
>    attribute. It seems like a separate issue.
>
>    Note for number 4, gecko almost always overrides the element->desktop
>    role mapping and trusts the author. We don't really validate the role
>    attribute against the element name. Having both the role and tag object
>    attributes allows the AT to decide what is best. I realize there are pros
>    and cons to this design.
>
>    The proposal seems to be heading towards using object attributes as the
>    new defacto API (why bother with our existing enumerated MSAA/IA2 roles) for
>    browsers. I like the idea of having a more flexible extensible API. Overall
>    I have had push back from devs like Jamie (NVDA) about overusing the object
>    attributes, so I'm interested to hear his feedback on this thread.
>
>    Cheers,
>    David
>
>    On 25/01/11 3:45 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>    Yes Steve. Thank you for the correction.
>
>
>    Rich Schwerdtfeger
>    CTO Accessibility Software Group
>
>    [image: Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/25/2011 10:50:13
>    AM---Hi Rich, you wrote:]Steve Faulkner ---01/25/2011 10:50:13 AM---Hi
>    Rich, you wrote:
>
>    From: Steve Faulkner *<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>*<faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
>    To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
>    Cc: *wai-xtech@w3.org* <wai-xtech@w3.org>, *david.bolter@gmail.com*<david.bolter@gmail.com>
>    Date: 01/25/2011 10:50 AM
>    Subject: Re: HTML 5 Accessibility Mappings
>     ------------------------------
>
>
>
>    Hi Rich,
>
>    you wrote:
>
>    3. For HTML elements that have default ARIA role semantic we pass the
>    HTML element name as the role in the name value pair passed in the object
>    attributes sent to the AT
>
>    shouldn't this be?
>
>    "For HTML elements that have NO default ARIA role semantic..."
>
>    regards
>    stevef
>
>    On 25 January 2011 16:40, Richard Schwerdtfeger <*schwer@us.ibm.com*<schwer@us.ibm.com>>
>    wrote:
>    In HTML 5 we introduce the concept of native host language semantics in
>    terms of ARIA roles for all HTML elements. I would like to propose the
>    following
>
>    1. All HTML elements should provide a role attribute in the
>    corresponding accessible object through the object attributes (such as in
>    IAccessible2)
>    2. For HTML elements that have an ARIA equivalent role that role should
>    be passed as the role name/value pair in the object attributes unless the
>    author overrides the default elements role in the object attribute
>    3. For HTML elements that have default ARIA role semantic we pass the
>    HTML element name as the role in the name value pair passed in the object
>    attributes sent to the AT
>    4. For HTML elements with an allowable ARIA role attribute that is
>    provided by the author we pass that role as the role attribute in the object
>    attributes
>
>    What this does for the author is it allows the author to supply ARIA
>    states and properties to elements that do not have a role supplied but
>    depend on the native ARIA semantics as defined by the HTML 5 specification.
>
>    A case in point:
>
>    <table tabindex="0" role="grid" aria-activedescendant="idx">
>    <tr>
>    <th>vegetables</th><th>fruits</th> ...
>    </tr>
>    <td id="idx" role="gridcell">broccoli</td><td role="gridcell>apple</td>
>    ...
>    </tr>
>    </table>
>
>
>    TR has a native host language ARIA semantic of "row" but no role is
>    needed.
>    <TH> defeaults to columnheader and so on.
>
>    Feedback?
>
>    Rich Schwerdtfeger
>    CTO Accessibility Software Group
>
>
>
>
>    --
>    with regards
>
>    Steve Faulkner
>    Technical Director - TPG*
>
>    **www.paciellogroup.com* <http://www.paciellogroup.com/> | *
>    www.HTML5accessibility.com* <http://www.html5accessibility.com/> | *
>    www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner* <http://www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner>
>    HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives - *
>    dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/*<http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/>
>    Web Accessibility Toolbar - *www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>    * <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>
>
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html