RE: drag'n'drop is grab'n'drop for non-visual users

aloha, aaron and patrick!

i originally advocated for modifier+C and modifier+V because they
are familiar to users -- however, as you can tell from the minutes
cited earlier

http://www.w3.org/2008/12/08-pf-minutes.html#item08

my suggestion that we reuse copy and paste for dragging and dropping
went over like a lead balloon -- PLEASE refer to the minutes above, 
as the objections are not mine, but those of other ARIA caucus 
members...

patrick, as to a naked ENTER there are already too many keyboard 
associations with naked ENTER commands, and they are likely to 
cause problems and conflicts -- for example, to enter forms mode
in JAWS one needs to establish focus on a form field and press
ENTER -- this leads (at least 2 out of every 5 times) to submission
of a blank form, as ENTER is used by user agents as a submit 
mechanism as long as one is on a form control...

if i choose to invoke the list of form controls generated by JAWS
to get to a particular form field, i must use INSERT plus F5, which
a large proportion of the time leads to the reloading of the page
(and accompanying loss of user-input data) because the INSERT is
often not picked up (i have tried this on at least 25 keyboards)
and the user agent receives a "refresh" command, so reusing "common"
conventions straight-up is not a good idea, even if a modifier is 
invoked...

yes, this is not our problem, but an implementation problem on the 
part of user agents and assistive technologies, but we MUST deal 
with the realities of implementation, and as was repeatedly pointed
out during the meeting, the URI of whose minutes i've already given
earlier in this emessage, reusing copy and paste and cut and paste
commands doesn't adequately cover the use cases involved with 
drag'n'drop

gregory.

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as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them 
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             Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net
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---------- Original Message -----------
From: Aaron M Leventhal <aleventh@us.ibm.com>
To: "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>
Cc: To: Sean Hayes <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>, "w3c-wai-pf@w3.org" <w3c-
wai-pf@w3.org>, w3c-wai-pf-request@w3.org, "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-
xtech@w3.org>
Sent: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:13:39 +0100
Subject: RE: drag'n'drop is grab'n'drop for non-visual users

> Why not do what desktop GUIs already do? Use the copy and paste 
> shortcuts 
> (Ctrl+C or Cmd+C to copy and Ctrl+V or Cmd+V. This is most 
> likely to be discovered and remembered by users.
> 
> In contexts where the user has a choice between moving or 
> copying an item, the app can provide both Ctrl+C and Ctrl+X as 
> options to start the drag.
> 
> - Aaron
> 
> From:
> "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>
> To:
> To: Sean Hayes <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>, "wai-xtech@w3.org" 
> <wai-xtech@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-pf@w3.org" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
> Date:
> 01/05/2009 10:02 PM
> Subject:
> RE: drag'n'drop is grab'n'drop for non-visual users
> 
> aloha, again!
> 
> i neglected to mention in my first post that grab'n'drop applies 
> to all keyboard only users regardless of visual acuity...
> 
> gregory.
------- End of Original Message -------

Received on Monday, 5 January 2009 22:00:47 UTC