- From: David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
- Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:20:31 -0400
- To: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>, <public-html@w3.org>, "W3C WAI-XTECH" <wai-xtech@w3.org>, <wai-liaison@w3.org>
I use all graphics mode in jaws 8 and 9. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> To: "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com> Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>; <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C WAI-XTECH" <wai-xtech@w3.org>; <wai-liaison@w3.org> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:16 AM Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the pile hi david, > Send me a page and I'll report. i have JAWS 5.1, 6.0, 6.2, 7.0 7.1, 8.0 and 9.0 intsalled on my machine So i asked for an example from you ,where this occurs at it dosn't tally with my findings, though my test have not been exhaustive. Are you using a version of JAWS other than those listed? If so which one? If I know which version then i can test it locally and then make the test page available to you, to see if there is a discrepency, between our results. it would also be helpful to know which mode you are using when it occurs and which verbosity settings. regards steve On 20/04/2008, David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com> wrote: > Send me a page and I'll report. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> > > To: "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com> > Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>; <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C > WAI-XTECH" > <wai-xtech@w3.org>; <wai-liaison@w3.org> > > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:41 AM > Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the pile > > > > hi david, > >I have not seen jaws ignoring alt="" in fact, it reports some blather as > >though there was no alt. > > can you supply some examples of where this occurs and also what > version of JAWS you are using. > > regards > stevef > > > > On 20/04/2008, David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com> > wrote: > > I have not seen jaws ignoring alt="" in fact, it reports some blather > as > > though there was no alt. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> > > To: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi> > > Cc: <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C WAI-XTECH" <wai-xtech@w3.org>; > > <wai-liaison@w3.org> > > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:25 AM > > Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the > pile > > > > > > > > hi henri, > > > > > There has now been a decade-long experiment with making alt a syntax > > > requirement. I think this experiment shows that doing so has the > > > downside > > > of > > > inducing bogus alt. When validation has downsides, as a validator > > > developer, > > > I want to work to remove the downsides. > > > > Where is the empirical data to support your assumptions? All we > > currently have on both sides is anecdote and conviction. > > > > > A modal non-visual UI may be easier to invent, but in a non-visual > UI > > > it > > > is > > > also harder to tell what mode you are trapped in, so I don't think it > is > > > necessarily OK to introduce more modality even if there already is > some. > > > It > > > appears that VoiceOver tries to avoid modality (apart from the VO key > > > lock) > > > just like visual Apple user interfaces. > > > > As far as AT is concerned we are not comparing like with like. > > the windows and mac OS systems present different challenges for AT to > > overcome. > > I do not understand the reason for presence of modal UIs in windows > > AT, but not in voiceover. > > > > my suggestion was not to add another mode as both window eys and jaws > > (for example) have the option available already to announce all > > graphics, but currently this setting still ignores <img alt="">, > > so what I am suggesting is that the vendors merely change the > > functionality for this option so that alt="" is reported. > > > > regards > > stevef > > On 20/04/2008, Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi> wrote: > > > On Apr 18, 2008, at 11:07, Steven Faulkner wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. Now you are being so dogmatic about the alt attribute being > > > > > there > > > > > that you are willing to suggest modal UI to work around it. > That's > > > > > bad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is dogma on both sides of the debate, you appear more > dogmatic > > > > about the idea of alt as optional, than I am to it being required, > I > > > > have publically stated that I am as yet unconvinced of the > > > > desirability of a required alt. There is obviuosly no doubt in your > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > I can be persuaded with empirical data. > > > > > > There has now been a decade-long experiment with making alt a syntax > > > requirement. I think this experiment shows that doing so has the > > > downside > > > of > > > inducing bogus alt. When validation has downsides, as a validator > > > developer, > > > I want to work to remove the downsides. > > > > > > It may be that there's a greater upside and that a situation that > > > polarizes > > > results but has a greater upside is better even if it also moves the > > > downside further from neutrality. However, absent data about this, I > > > think > > > it is reasonable to default to removing the downside. > > > > > > Also, I think the Image Review feature I have implemented in > > > Validator.nu > > > works better than merely flagging missing alt as a validation error > > > would > > > for validator users who want to maximize an accessibility measure. It > > > remains to be seen how it affects validator users who don't care > about > > > an > > > accessibility measure and are seeking to maximize a syntactic > > > correctness > > > measure. > > > > > > In general, if you want people to maximize function f(), it is safer > to > > > tell them to do so than to tell them to maximize a more appealing > > > function > > > g() and then try to build an artificial correlation between the two. > > > Because > > > then people are really maximizing g() and if your artificial > correlation > > > setup isn't working, well, oops. So if your agenda is accessibility, > the > > > advocacy should be "accessibility, accessibility"--not "validity, > > > validity" > > > with an added attempt to tie them together. > > > > > > > > > > There already are "modal UI's" for most aspects of screen readers > > > > content presentation, i think it is the nature of presenting > visual > > > > UI's non visually or non linear content linearly. > > > > > > > > > > A modal non-visual UI may be easier to invent, but in a non-visual > UI > > > it > > > is > > > also harder to tell what mode you are trapped in, so I don't think it > is > > > necessarily OK to introduce more modality even if there already is > some. > > > It > > > appears that VoiceOver tries to avoid modality (apart from the VO key > > > lock) > > > just like visual Apple user interfaces. > > > > > > -- > > > Henri Sivonen > > > hsivonen@iki.fi > > > http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > with regards > > > > Steve Faulkner > > Technical Director - TPG Europe > > Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium > > > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org > > Web Accessibility Toolbar - > > http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > > > > > > > > > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG Europe > Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org > Web Accessibility Toolbar - > http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Sunday, 20 April 2008 15:21:17 UTC