- From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:41:19 +0200
- To: "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
- Cc: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi>, public-html@w3.org, "W3C WAI-XTECH" <wai-xtech@w3.org>, wai-liaison@w3.org
hi david, >I have not seen jaws ignoring alt="" in fact, it reports some blather as >though there was no alt. can you supply some examples of where this occurs and also what version of JAWS you are using. regards stevef On 20/04/2008, David Poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com> wrote: > I have not seen jaws ignoring alt="" in fact, it reports some blather as > though there was no alt. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> > To: "Henri Sivonen" <hsivonen@iki.fi> > Cc: <public-html@w3.org>; "W3C WAI-XTECH" <wai-xtech@w3.org>; > <wai-liaison@w3.org> > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:25 AM > Subject: Re: One more thought about requiring the alt to add to the pile > > > > hi henri, > > > There has now been a decade-long experiment with making alt a syntax > > requirement. I think this experiment shows that doing so has the downside > > of > > inducing bogus alt. When validation has downsides, as a validator > > developer, > > I want to work to remove the downsides. > > Where is the empirical data to support your assumptions? All we > currently have on both sides is anecdote and conviction. > > > A modal non-visual UI may be easier to invent, but in a non-visual UI it > > is > > also harder to tell what mode you are trapped in, so I don't think it is > > necessarily OK to introduce more modality even if there already is some. > > It > > appears that VoiceOver tries to avoid modality (apart from the VO key > > lock) > > just like visual Apple user interfaces. > > As far as AT is concerned we are not comparing like with like. > the windows and mac OS systems present different challenges for AT to > overcome. > I do not understand the reason for presence of modal UIs in windows > AT, but not in voiceover. > > my suggestion was not to add another mode as both window eys and jaws > (for example) have the option available already to announce all > graphics, but currently this setting still ignores <img alt="">, > so what I am suggesting is that the vendors merely change the > functionality for this option so that alt="" is reported. > > regards > stevef > On 20/04/2008, Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi> wrote: > > On Apr 18, 2008, at 11:07, Steven Faulkner wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > No. Now you are being so dogmatic about the alt attribute being there > > > > that you are willing to suggest modal UI to work around it. That's > > > > bad. > > > > > > > > > > > There is dogma on both sides of the debate, you appear more dogmatic > > > about the idea of alt as optional, than I am to it being required, I > > > have publically stated that I am as yet unconvinced of the > > > desirability of a required alt. There is obviuosly no doubt in your > > > mind. > > > > > > > I can be persuaded with empirical data. > > > > There has now been a decade-long experiment with making alt a syntax > > requirement. I think this experiment shows that doing so has the downside > > of > > inducing bogus alt. When validation has downsides, as a validator > > developer, > > I want to work to remove the downsides. > > > > It may be that there's a greater upside and that a situation that > > polarizes > > results but has a greater upside is better even if it also moves the > > downside further from neutrality. However, absent data about this, I think > > it is reasonable to default to removing the downside. > > > > Also, I think the Image Review feature I have implemented in Validator.nu > > works better than merely flagging missing alt as a validation error would > > for validator users who want to maximize an accessibility measure. It > > remains to be seen how it affects validator users who don't care about an > > accessibility measure and are seeking to maximize a syntactic correctness > > measure. > > > > In general, if you want people to maximize function f(), it is safer to > > tell them to do so than to tell them to maximize a more appealing function > > g() and then try to build an artificial correlation between the two. > > Because > > then people are really maximizing g() and if your artificial correlation > > setup isn't working, well, oops. So if your agenda is accessibility, the > > advocacy should be "accessibility, accessibility"--not "validity, > > validity" > > with an added attempt to tie them together. > > > > > > > There already are "modal UI's" for most aspects of screen readers > > > content presentation, i think it is the nature of presenting visual > > > UI's non visually or non linear content linearly. > > > > > > > A modal non-visual UI may be easier to invent, but in a non-visual UI it > > is > > also harder to tell what mode you are trapped in, so I don't think it is > > necessarily OK to introduce more modality even if there already is some. > > It > > appears that VoiceOver tries to avoid modality (apart from the VO key > > lock) > > just like visual Apple user interfaces. > > > > -- > > Henri Sivonen > > hsivonen@iki.fi > > http://hsivonen.iki.fi/ > > > > > > > > > -- > with regards > > Steve Faulkner > Technical Director - TPG Europe > Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium > > www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org > Web Accessibility Toolbar - > http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html > > > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Sunday, 20 April 2008 13:41:54 UTC