Re: [STYLEGUIDE] Tab Panel discussion

I agree about the mode switching confusion.  In terms of a user 
experience I guess we need to decide what we want, and then see what we 
can get.  Applying the existing JAWS form mode heuristics to RIA is 
clearly not ideal.

cheers,
David

Jon Gunderson wrote:
> I think Michael raises an important usability issues of ARIA.  The mode switching needed to get ARIA information is not very intuitive.  We have been doing similar testing here and it is confusing even to experienced JAWS users what mode they should be in.
>
> Jon
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
>   
>> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:40:04 -0500
>> From: Michael A Squillace <masquill@us.ibm.com>  
>> Subject: RE: [STYLEGUIDE] Tab Panel discussion  
>> To: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@nc.rr.com>
>> Cc: "'Becky Gibson'" <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com>, "'David Bolter'" <david.bolter@utoronto.ca>, w3c-wai-pf@w3.org, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-xtech-request@w3.org
>>
>>   David:
>>   Forms mode is precisely the same as having the
>>   Virtual PC Cursor off, as you do when you're working
>>   with web content. The problem is that, as a
>>   screen-reader user, I don't know when to initiate
>>   forms mode/turn off Virtual PC Cursor (other than
>>   when I encounter a form element). Sina is right - we
>>   could instruct users to initiate forms mode to
>>   navigate the tabs but getting out of forms mode is
>>   typically initiated by the user or by a page reload,
>>   nothing else that I know of does this. Thus,
>>   navigating to the information on a panel brought up
>>   by  a tab selection might require leaving forms mode
>>   and re-entering it upon finding the panel.
>>
>>   More generally, I was actually playing with some
>>   ARIA Button examples offered by John Gunderson:
>>
>>   http://test.cita.uiuc.edu/aria/button/
>>
>>   I got no ARIA role/state information unless I had
>>   Virtual PC mode off. I am certainly an experienced
>>   Jaws user and it took me a minute or so to figure
>>   out what was going on. In Virtual PC Mode (the
>>   standard mode for reading web content for Jaws
>>   users), there was no indication that these controls
>>   were anything but list items.
>>
>>   --> Mike Squillace
>>   IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Center
>>   Austin, TX
>>
>>   W:512.823.7423
>>   M:512.970.0066
>>
>>   masquill@us.ibm.com
>>   www.ibm.com/able
>>
>> "Sina Bahram"            To "'David Bolter'"                
>> <sbahram@nc.rr.com>         <david.bolter@utoronto.ca>      
>>                         cc <wai-xtech@w3.org>,             
>> 05/31/2007 04:27 PM         <wai-xtech-request@w3.org>,     
>>                            <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>, Michael A  
>>                            Squillace/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,     
>>                            "'Becky Gibson'"                
>>                            <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com> 
>>                    Subject RE: [STYLEGUIDE] Tab Panel      
>>                            discussion                      
>>                                                            
>>
>>   Jaws has a forms mode that it uses
>>
>>   By the way, this isn't a bad idea at all
>>
>>   We could simply make the control respond to left and
>>   right arrow, and then
>>   force the user to use forms mode, which should be
>>   known to them already, to
>>   interact with it.
>>
>>   We could then fire off an event that would let the
>>   screen reader know to
>>   come out of forms mode, similar to what a page
>>   reload event does now.
>>   Take care,
>>   Sina
>>
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: david bolter [mailto:david.bolter@gmail.com]
>>   On Behalf Of David Bolter
>>   Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:20 PM
>>   To: Sina Bahram
>>   Cc: wai-xtech@w3.org; wai-xtech-request@w3.org;
>>   w3c-wai-pf@w3.org; 'Michael
>>   A Squillace'; 'Becky Gibson'
>>   Subject: Re: [STYLEGUIDE] Tab Panel discussion
>>
>>   Hi all,
>>
>>   Forgive my ignorance but what is the regular JAWS
>>   mode for say...
>>   interacting with regular form inputs such as radio
>>   buttons?  A sighted JAWS
>>   novice, I use pc cursor mode off. Whatever the mode,
>>   we need to get JAWS to
>>   evolve to treat keyboard control and reporting of
>>   ARIA components similarly
>>   to what is done with form elements I think.
>>   Otherwise the user experience is going to be murky,
>>   as Mike points out.
>>
>>   cheers,
>>   David
>>
>>   Sina Bahram wrote:
>>   > Another possibility, and yes this depends on AT
>>   vendor support, is to
>>   > simply have them come up with a keystroke that is
>>   the all of, "switch  
>>   > to pc cursor", issue cursor key, "switch back to
>>   virtual cursor". Then
>>   > they could assign that to something, although
>>   honestly so many keys
>>   > and keystrokes are taken up, that finding a
>>   semantically appropriate
>>   > mapping might be difficult.
>>   >
>>   > Take care,
>>   > Sina
>>   >
>>   > ________________________________
>>   >
>>   > From: wai-xtech-request@w3.org
>>   [mailto:wai-xtech-request@w3.org] On
>>   > Behalf Of Michael A Squillace
>>   > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:37 AM
>>   > To: Becky Gibson
>>   > Cc: wai-xtech@w3.org; wai-xtech-request@w3.org;
>>   w3c-wai-pf@w3.org
>>   > Subject: RE: [STYLEGUIDE] Tab Panel discussion
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >  
>>   >> My concern with this approach is that when in
>>   Firefox or internet
>>   >> explorer, screen readers like JAWS will consume
>>   the left and right
>>   >> arrow keystrokes not allowing for switching tabs.
>>   >>    
>>   >
>>   > When you are navigating a page in Firefox with
>>   ARIA implemented, using
>>   > JAWS virtual pc cursor mode off or Window-Eyes
>>   browse mode off will
>>   > allow you to navigate using the arrow keys.
>>   >
>>   > My concern is that typical AT users are not going
>>   to be as technically
>>   > savy as people reading these notes and that
>>   functioning with JAWS
>>   > virtual pc cursor mode off or Window-Eyes browse
>>   mode off is going to be
>>   confusing.
>>   > Also, how does the screen-reader user know when
>>   these modes are to be
>>   > on/off? Is this documented somewhere within the
>>   ARIA spec or is it
>>   > going to be an implementation detail? For example,
>>   I encounter a tab
>>   > panel and need to be alerted somehow that I am to
>>   switch tabs using
>>   > the arrow keys with the appropriate mode off; I
>>   then resume, at some
>>   > point, with Virtual PC or Browse mode on again.
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > --> Mike Squillace
>>   > IBM Human Ability and Accessibility Center Austin,
>>   TX
>>   >
>>   > W:512.823.7423
>>   > M:512.970.0066
>>   >
>>   > masquill@us.ibm.com
>>   > www.ibm.com/able
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > "Becky Gibson" <Becky_Gibson@notesdev.ibm.com>
>>   Sent by:
>>   > wai-xtech-request@w3.org
>>   >
>>   > 05/30/2007 09:19 AM
>>   >
>>   >                  
>>   > To
>>   >                  wai-xtech@w3.org
>>   > cc
>>   >                  
>>   > Subject
>>   >                  RE: [STYLEGUIDE] Tab Panel
>>   discussion
>>   >
>>   >                  
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   > "Don Raikes" <don.raikes@oracle.com> wrote on
>>   05/29/2007 06:02:27 PM:
>>   >
>>   >  
>>   >>> There is a proposal for tab panel behavior in
>>   the wiki [1].
>>   >>> The style guide working group has discussed tab
>>   pane to some extent
>>   >>> and I believe we agree that the panel would
>>   become active when the
>>   >>> tab
>>   >>> receives focus.   I
>>   >>> updated the key behavior section with the
>>   following information:
>>   >>>
>>   >>> tab - only the active tab is in the tab order.
>>   The user reaches the
>>   >>> tabbed panel component by pressing the tab key
>>   until the active tab
>>   >>> title receives focus.
>>   >>>      
>>   >> How would someone using a screen reader know it
>>   is a tab, and how
>>   >> would he know what the other tabs are?
>>   >>    
>>   >
>>   > I am planning to use the Accessible Rich Internet
>>   Applications (ARAI)
>>   > techniques that allow me to identify the tabs.
>>    Using the ARIA
>>   > techniques and running with JAWS or Window-Eyes in
>>   Firefox will
>>   > identify the tabs to the user.
>>   >  
>>   >>> left arrow - with focus on a tab, pressing the
>>   left arrow will move
>>   >>> focus to the previous tab in the tab list and
>>   activate that tab.
>>   >>> Pressing the left arrow when the focus is on the
>>   first tab in the
>>   >>> tab list will move focus and activate the last
>>   tab in the list.
>>   >>>
>>   >>> right arrow - with focus on a tab, pressing the
>>   right arrow will
>>   >>> move focus to the next tab in the tab list and
>>   activate that tab.
>>   >>> Pressing the right arrow when the focus is on
>>   the last tab in the
>>   >>> tab list will move focus to and activate the
>>   first tab in the list.
>>   >>>      
>>   >> My concern with this approach is that when in
>>   Firefox or internet
>>   >> explorer, screen readers like JAWS will consume
>>   the left and right
>>   >> arrow keystrokes not allowing for switching tabs.
>>   >>    
>>   >
>>   > When you are navigating a page in Firefox with
>>   ARIA implemented, using
>>   > JAWS virtual pc cursor mode off or Window-Eyes
>>   browse mode off will
>>   > allow you to navigate using the arrow keys.
>>   >
>>   > Becky Gibson
>>   > Web Accessibility Architect
>>   >                                                  
>>      
>>   > IBM Emerging Internet Technologies
>>   > 5 Technology Park Drive
>>   > Westford, MA 01886
>>   > Voice: 978 399-6101; t/l 333-6101
>>   > Email: gibsonb@us.ibm.com
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >
>>   >  
>>     
> Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
> Director of IT Accessibility Services (CITES)
> and 
> Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology (DRES)
>
> WWW: http://www.cita.uiuc.edu/
> WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/
>
>
>
>

Received on Friday, 1 June 2007 15:14:05 UTC