Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2

> Yes I agree granularity would be useful, but it depends on what you're
> navigating to.

In real life I navigate though concepts. Things i think are associated to
each other.


> As for semantics, well, are they really necessary?
Yes so you can deal with knowledge not with data


>  So, I believe,
> that if we can communicate the stimuli in another, non visual, form, then
> the user can learn the meaning associated with it, just as sighted people
> associate meaning with visual stimuli.
True if you are changing to a tactile rendering of the page that works. but
then we don't need any of this.

If you want to process the page for different groups of people it helps if
you know the intent of  page elements and
what things are , start to finish. Conceptually: what is my identity? what
is my task?

> As we're using mainly sequential output media, such as Speech and Braille,
> it will probably be a slow process to communicate all the attributes of
the
> stimuli to the user.


That is why if you know the task iof element, of you can  then you can make
a more useful mechanism for presenting this information to the user.

> So, semantic information isn't required in the mark-up in order for
someone
> to access the semantic meaning behind images, but would improve the
> usability of images.
I agree that it will improve usability, but in some cases that may be to the
point of access being useful in the first place.

> Will
Lisa


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> To: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>; <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will Pearson"
> <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
>
>
> > Lisa,
> >
> > After thinking about this, I came to the conclusion yesterday that the
> > ability to change granularity if supportable would be something that
would
> > be needed and I agree that this might get us the finer details although
I
> > hadn't thought of it in such a concrete fashion but it is also important
> to
> > retain the spatial relationships within the image so we need to be able
to
> > move in multiple and varying directions as well as gather fine details
but
> > as you say, it's not supported to that level of semantic information.
> >
> > Johnnie Apple Seed
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>
> > To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> > <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
> >
> >
> >
> > I spoke to Gregory briefly last night. I think the main point for our
chat
> > (other then just being good to chat to him)  was what is needed is an
> > ability to switch granularity. In other words, to zoom in in the details
> and
> > then take a step back,(whilst staying were you are) and look around, and
> > then see detail.
> >
> > Take for example an SVG subway map. You want to go to station X, so look
> at
> > station x for details, is it accessible? Does it have an accessible
> > bathroom. If the answer is no, then I would want to switch
granularities,
> > and be able to navigate around the different stations. When i get to a
> > station I know is close, then i would want to zoom in and get
information.
> >
> > So the proposal would be like ctr arrow up would switch granulates up.
> >
> > But there is little point to that because there is not the supporting
the
> > language to support the concepts behind it.
> >
> > Basically it comes down to the lack of semantic information , and the
need
> > for identification and integrity of blocks of content and to know what
> they
> > intend to be, and what state they have, and relationships with other
> > content.
> >
> > It was very similar for the need of content and concept zoom that i
> > suggested for Math ml, SVG and XHTML. Where you can identify on concept
as
> > being part or a conceptual zooming in of another section of content.
> >
> > At the moment we can do this with RDF, but it would be much easer to
> promote
> > if the languages themselves supported it.
> >
> > Lisa
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> > To: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>; <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will
Pearson"
> > <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
> >
> >
> > > Lisa,
> > >
> > > It is possible with anything to get lost, but it is also quite
possible
> > for
> > > people who have a good memory of spatial things such as myself and
> > possibly
> > > will and many others that this would be a usefull tool.  AS to where
it
> > fits
> > > in the scheeme of things with respect to ua, at or svg spec is
something
> > to
> > > be hashed out but keyboard exploration of diagrams needs to be enabled
> for
> > > without it, we are lost.
> > >
> > > It would be interesting to hear Gregory's thoughts, I do think though
> that
> > > there is a good deal of research behind the possibilities of this
> working
> > > though.
> > >
> > > Johnnie Apple Seed
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>
> > > To: <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 1:51 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
> > >
> > >
> > > My concern is that you would get terribly lost.
> > >
> > > But is anyone thinks this might be useful, and could do it ,  it would
> be
> > > Gregory Rosmaiter. So I am cc'ing him.
> > > I will also try and ask him.
> > >
> > > Keep well
> > > L
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >   From: Will Pearson
> > >   To: wai-xtech@w3.org
> > >   Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 10:38 PM
> > >   Subject: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
> > >
> > >
> > >   Hi;
> > >
> > >   At the moment there's no clear indication within the spec that
> document
> > > exploration should be made available through a ua's keyboard
interface.
> > > Whilst most people will be able to visually explore the image, this
> won't
> > be
> > > possible for some users, and may not be possible for others.
Therefore,
> I
> > > would like to suggest that some form of navigation between container
> > > elements and graphic elements be recommended as a guideline for ua
> > > developers.  This should facilitate exploration of the document away
> from
> > > any elements with 'focusable' set to true, or active elements with
> > > 'focusable' set to auto.
> > >
> > >   Ideally, this would be based on spatial direction, thus allowing the
> > user
> > > to build up a mental model of the spatial relationships between
> elements.
> > >
> > >   The spec already makes provision for a range of alternative pointing
> > > devices, through DOM 3 I think, but I think we need something a bit
more
> > > granular than a pixel by pixel movement typically offered by pointing
> > > devices.  The main reason for this, is that the HCI task analysis for
> > moving
> > > two points require the user to know where the pointer is in relation
to
> > the
> > > target.  This can be done with speech, and there's an event in JAWS to
> > > handle this, but having experimented with this on a small number of
> users,
> > > doing the math necessary to work out the relationship between pointer
> and
> > > target raised the cognitive workload, as measured by the NASA-TLX
test,
> > > quite significantly.
> > >
> > >   So, I propose the following eight keys to facilitate document
> > exploration
> > > within a ua:
> > >                              I.       Up (337.5º - 22.5º)
> > >
> > >                            II.      Diagonally up and right (22.5º -
> > 67.5º)
> > >
> > >                           III.       Right (67.5º - 112.5º)
> > >
> > >                        IV.       Diagonally down and right (112.5º -
> > 157.5º)
> > >
> > >                          V.       Down (157.5º - 202.5º)
> > >
> > >                        VI.       Diagonally down and left (202.5º -
> > 247.5º)
> > >
> > >                       VII.       Left (247.5º - 292.5º)
> > >
> > >                     VIII.      Diagonally left and up (292.5º -
337.5º)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   Each of these keys will be responsible for moving to the nearest
> element
> > > within a 45º arc, as listed above.
> > >
> > >   Will
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Received on Wednesday, 24 November 2004 12:10:47 UTC