Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2

Will and all,

I'm not sure what you are saying.  If there are no semantics, we get no 
information about the kinds of things gregory was asking for.  If there are 
semantics and we zoom to a particular station on the map, the semantics if 
they are rich enough provide us with all the info we need about that station 
and we can even zoom in further say to platform a and read the signs on it.

Johnnie Apple Seed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; "Lisa 
Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>; <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2



Yes I agree granularity would be useful, but it depends on what you're
navigating to.  If you're navigating between container elements, such as
groups and symbols, then you have the distinction between granular levels
provided by these groupings, if you're just navigating between graphic
elements, such as <LINE>, <RECT>, <CIRCLE>, etc, then there's no syntactical
groupings.  There may be visual groupings, and these will be exposed through
revealing the spatial relationships via spatial navigation.

As for semantics, well, are they really necessary?  According to psychology,
meaning is something we associate with stimuli.  We receive stimuli, such as
sound, lightwaves, etc., and then group it into groups based on perceptual
psychology rules, such as the Gestalt laws of perception.  The final stage
is to associate meaning with this stimuli, based on what we've been
conditioned to believe the perceived stimuli represents.  So, I believe,
that if we can communicate the stimuli in another, non visual, form, then
the user can learn the meaning associated with it, just as sighted people
associate meaning with visual stimuli.

Having said that, I wouldn't stand in the way of more semantic information.
As we're using mainly sequential output media, such as Speech and Braille,
it will probably be a slow process to communicate all the attributes of the
stimuli to the user.  There's two ways to sort this, either the AT vendors
look into multiple methods of encoding meaning within the output channel, or
we reduce the amount of information being conveyed.  This reduction in
information is where semantics would be useful, as it would reduce the
amount of information conveyed to just the meaning, and would also reduce
the amount of cognitive activity required by the user, as they would no
longer be required to perform the association between stimuli and meaning.

So, semantic information isn't required in the mark-up in order for someone
to access the semantic meaning behind images, but would improve the
usability of images.

Will
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
To: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>; <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will Pearson"
<will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2


> Lisa,
>
> After thinking about this, I came to the conclusion yesterday that the
> ability to change granularity if supportable would be something that would
> be needed and I agree that this might get us the finer details although I
> hadn't thought of it in such a concrete fashion but it is also important
to
> retain the spatial relationships within the image so we need to be able to
> move in multiple and varying directions as well as gather fine details but
> as you say, it's not supported to that level of semantic information.
>
> Johnnie Apple Seed
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>
> To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
>
>
>
> I spoke to Gregory briefly last night. I think the main point for our chat
> (other then just being good to chat to him)  was what is needed is an
> ability to switch granularity. In other words, to zoom in in the details
and
> then take a step back,(whilst staying were you are) and look around, and
> then see detail.
>
> Take for example an SVG subway map. You want to go to station X, so look
at
> station x for details, is it accessible? Does it have an accessible
> bathroom. If the answer is no, then I would want to switch granularities,
> and be able to navigate around the different stations. When i get to a
> station I know is close, then i would want to zoom in and get information.
>
> So the proposal would be like ctr arrow up would switch granulates up.
>
> But there is little point to that because there is not the supporting the
> language to support the concepts behind it.
>
> Basically it comes down to the lack of semantic information , and the need
> for identification and integrity of blocks of content and to know what
they
> intend to be, and what state they have, and relationships with other
> content.
>
> It was very similar for the need of content and concept zoom that i
> suggested for Math ml, SVG and XHTML. Where you can identify on concept as
> being part or a conceptual zooming in of another section of content.
>
> At the moment we can do this with RDF, but it would be much easer to
promote
> if the languages themselves supported it.
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> To: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>; <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will Pearson"
> <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
>
>
> > Lisa,
> >
> > It is possible with anything to get lost, but it is also quite possible
> for
> > people who have a good memory of spatial things such as myself and
> possibly
> > will and many others that this would be a usefull tool.  AS to where it
> fits
> > in the scheeme of things with respect to ua, at or svg spec is something
> to
> > be hashed out but keyboard exploration of diagrams needs to be enabled
for
> > without it, we are lost.
> >
> > It would be interesting to hear Gregory's thoughts, I do think though
that
> > there is a good deal of research behind the possibilities of this
working
> > though.
> >
> > Johnnie Apple Seed
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Lisa Seeman" <lisa@ubaccess.com>
> > To: <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: <oedipus@hicom.net>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 1:51 AM
> > Subject: Re: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
> >
> >
> > My concern is that you would get terribly lost.
> >
> > But is anyone thinks this might be useful, and could do it ,  it would
be
> > Gregory Rosmaiter. So I am cc'ing him.
> > I will also try and ask him.
> >
> > Keep well
> > L
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Will Pearson
> >   To: wai-xtech@w3.org
> >   Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 10:38 PM
> >   Subject: Keyboard Navigation For Document Exploration In SVG 1.2
> >
> >
> >   Hi;
> >
> >   At the moment there's no clear indication within the spec that
document
> > exploration should be made available through a ua's keyboard interface.
> > Whilst most people will be able to visually explore the image, this
won't
> be
> > possible for some users, and may not be possible for others.  Therefore,
I
> > would like to suggest that some form of navigation between container
> > elements and graphic elements be recommended as a guideline for ua
> > developers.  This should facilitate exploration of the document away
from
> > any elements with 'focusable' set to true, or active elements with
> > 'focusable' set to auto.
> >
> >   Ideally, this would be based on spatial direction, thus allowing the
> user
> > to build up a mental model of the spatial relationships between
elements.
> >
> >   The spec already makes provision for a range of alternative pointing
> > devices, through DOM 3 I think, but I think we need something a bit more
> > granular than a pixel by pixel movement typically offered by pointing
> > devices.  The main reason for this, is that the HCI task analysis for
> moving
> > two points require the user to know where the pointer is in relation to
> the
> > target.  This can be done with speech, and there's an event in JAWS to
> > handle this, but having experimented with this on a small number of
users,
> > doing the math necessary to work out the relationship between pointer
and
> > target raised the cognitive workload, as measured by the NASA-TLX test,
> > quite significantly.
> >
> >   So, I propose the following eight keys to facilitate document
> exploration
> > within a ua:
> >                              I.       Up (337.5 - 22.5)
> >
> >                            II.      Diagonally up and right (22.5 -
> 67.5)
> >
> >                           III.       Right (67.5 - 112.5)
> >
> >                        IV.       Diagonally down and right (112.5 -
> 157.5)
> >
> >                          V.       Down (157.5 - 202.5)
> >
> >                        VI.       Diagonally down and left (202.5 -
> 247.5)
> >
> >                       VII.       Left (247.5 - 292.5)
> >
> >                     VIII.      Diagonally left and up (292.5 - 337.5)
> >
> >
> >
> >   Each of these keys will be responsible for moving to the nearest
element
> > within a 45 arc, as listed above.
> >
> >   Will
>
>
>
>
>
>

Received on Wednesday, 24 November 2004 12:00:09 UTC