RE: activation / focus and users Re: Access Key

Doug and others are presenting a case of 
mobile use of access keys.

I'd like that case to be seperated from the accessibility use of
the access keys, unless / until they are proven to have matching
requirements.

DaveP




> I would like to present the view of the mobile browser community and
> say that we very much require the "activate immediately" behavior of
> access keys as they relate to hyperlinks. With the usability 
> of current
> interfaces somewhat strained, every keystroke by the end user matters.
> Movement of focus with the first keystroke followed by activation of
> the link by the second is just not acceptable.
> 
> The notion of allowing duplicate access key bindings is an interesting
> one, though not at all compelling for the mobile browser space. I
> don't think it motivates the "focus immediately approach", though I
> appreciate Tantek's other 4 reasons.
> 
> I feel strongly that "focus immediately" behavior of access 
> key applied
> to hyperlinks in mobile browsers in unacceptable and would not be
> implemented, so I would like to see a solution that would 
> avoid divergence.
> 
> Thanks for your consideration.
> 
> Regards,
> Doug Dominiak
> Openwave Systems
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tantek Çelik" <tantek@cs.stanford.edu>
> To: "Jon Gunderson" <jongund@uiuc.edu>; "Charles 
> McCathieNevile" <charles@w3.org>
> Cc: "WAI Cross-group list" <wai-xtech@w3.org>; "HTML WG" 
> <w3c-html-wg@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:42 AM
> Subject: Re: activation / focus and users Re: Access Key
> 
> 
> >
> > It appears that we are talking about two different (but at times
> > overlapping) communities of users.
> >
> > (1) Accessibility
> > (2) Power Users
> >
> > I believe that while serving (1) very often indirectly 
> serves (2) as well,
> > (1) should take priority over (2) when conflicts arise, or 
> when designing
> > "default behaviors".
> >
> > I would assert that Charles' use of his "own case" and reference to
> > efficiency places his example in (2).
> >
> > While I certainly understand the plea for efficiency, is 
> there really that
> > much difference in efficiency between:
> >
> > a) type accesskey (with modifier)
> > b) type accesskey (with modifier) and press return
> >
> > ?
> >
> > As far as overuse of hands, consider that typical typist 
> convention is to
> > use the right pinky finger to press the return key, and the 
> right pinky
> > finger is one of the least used from a frequency of 
> keypresses standpoint.
> >
> > I concur with Jon Gunderson's point about sequentially 
> moving the focus
> > among form controls/links with the same accesskey.[2]
> >
> >
> > As far as changing implementations, this is specifically 
> why I raised this
> > issue as a necessary clarification to HTML4.[2]
> >
> > In IE5/Mac we implemented the "activate immediately" 
> behavior of accesskey
> > on hyperlinks based upon literal reading of the informative 
> example(s) in
> > HTML4.
> >
> > Given experience and understanding since, I think this was 
> a mistake.
> >
> >
> > I want to change this in our next major release to "focus 
> immediately"
> > behavior which will have the following advantages (raised by the
> > participants in this discussion):
> >
> >  a) consistent behavior between IE/Mac and IE/Windows 
> (authors like that)
> >  b) consistent behavior among elements (users like that)
> >  c) ability to gracefully handle duplicate accesskeys by 
> rotating focus
> >  d) ability to have focus event handlers actually do 
> something on links
> >  e) increased safety by reducing the chance of accidental 
> link activation
> >
> > The only argument/advantage that I have seen/heard for the "activate
> > immediately" behavior is:
> >
> >  a) greater efficiency
> >
> > Which I believe is not that much anyway, as explained above.
> >
> > The specific errata to HTML4 that I proposed to fix this is 
> documented in
> > [2].
> >
> > If there is sufficient direction of opinion on this issue, 
> would it be
> > possible to achieve a consensus so I that I may move 
> forward with making
> > this change in our implementation in concert with that consensus?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Tantek
> >
> > [2]
> >  
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2002JulSep/0549.html
> >
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------
> > Tantek Çelik                                         
> tantek@cs.stanford.edu
> > Tasman Development Lead, Microsoft Corporation        
> tantekc@microsoft.com
> > Representative to W3C CSS and HTML working groups
> > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------
> >
> >
> > On 10/1/02 8:49 AM, "Jon Gunderson" <jongund@uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The other advantage of only moving focus is that if the 
> same accesskey is
> > > used multiple times on a page focus can move sequentially 
> between the form
> > > controls or links.
> > >
> > > The HTML spec [1] seems to indicate that links should be 
> automatically
> > > activated.  But the two implementations of accesskey 
> Internet Explorer 5.0+
> > > and Netscape Navigator 6.0+ differ on their 
> interpretation.  IE only moves
> > > focus and NN moves focus and activates the link.  Each 
> technique has its
> > > own advantages and disadvantages, but I think it would be 
> better for the
> > > user if browsers were consistent, and therefore the feature more
> > > predictable for end users.  But I guess this is a mute 
> point since IE and
> > > NN both do something different.  I doubt either will change their
> > > implementation.
> > >
> > > Jon
> > >
> > > [1] 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#adef-accesskey
> > >
> > > At 11:27 AM 10/1/2002 -0400, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
> > >> What kind of users are we talking about here?
> > >>
> > >> It seems there is a consensus that there are some users 
> for whom the focus
> > >> then activate sequence is an important safety feature - 
> people using
> > >> primarily voice interaction, who may not remember all 
> the access keys, people
> > >> who are likely to bounce on keys by accident.
> > >>
> > >> My own case is different - I have a problem with overuse 
> of my hands, but I
> > >> can (normally) see a lot of information presented 
> visually and it is rare
> > >> that I hit the wrong key, or am surprised by what 
> happened if I did. I
> > >> believe there are a number of people in related 
> situations (I know a handful
> > >> personally) who appreciate the efficiency of the direct 
> activation method
> > >> above all.
> > >>
> > >> I presume there are people who are somewhere between the 
> two - in some
> > >> circumstances they appreciate the efficiency, but in 
> other cases they want to
> > >> use the safety feature. (This is also relevant to 
> Jonny's comment about
> > >> triggering focus events)
> > >>
> > >> Can anyone help provide more data about the user 
> scenarios they are
> > >> outlining?
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >>
> > >> Chaals
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Jon Gunderson wrote (among other things):
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Accesskeys are important for allowing direct navigation 
> to links and form
> > >>> controls, especially web based applications that people 
> use on a daily
> > >>> basis.  When I use accesskeys I always provide built-in 
> documentation to
> > >>> what accesskeys are available in addition to the 
> underlining technique of
> > >>> the key letter in the link or form label.  We have 
> developed a web based
> > >>> database to keep track of disability services here at 
> UIUC that uses
> > >>> accesskeys and works very effectively to speed 
> navigation for screen reader
> > >>> users.  We have a internal link on each page to a list 
> of the available
> > >>> accesskeys on the page[1].
> > >>>
> > >>> My criteria for accesskeys:
> > >>> 3. I think moving focus is better than automatic 
> activation (the IE rather
> > >>> than NN way)
> > >>>
> > >>> Jon
> > >>>
> > >>> And at 10:14 PM 9/30/2002 +0200, Jonny Axelsson wrote 
> (among other things):
> > >>>
> > >>>> Here is a collection of my opinions on accesskey.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I would agree with Tantek on the effect of triggering 
> an accesskey.
> > >> While it
> > >>>> is more efficient to do actions with no confirmation, 
> the risk of
> > >> triggering
> > >>>> an accesskey accidentally, together with the 
> possibility that the
> > >> action may
> > >>>> be irreversible (like a POST or even a GET under some 
> circumstances, or
> > >> some
> > >>>> scriptable control), has convinced me that giving the 
> element focus is the
> > >>>> best and most predictable alternative.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> While there are conflicting opinions on whether 
> keyboard navigation should
> > >>>> trigger events (navigating using a keyboard would 
> normally traverse all
> > >>>> intervening elements on the way to the target, you 
> would not want to
> > >> trigger
> > >>>> those elements), accesskey should trigger a focus 
> event. It is the keyboard
> > >>>> equivalent to point and click (or rather point and mousedown).
> > >>>>
> > >
> > > Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
> > > Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
> > > Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
> > > MC-574
> > > College of Applied Life Studies
> > > University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
> > > 1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820
> > >
> > > Voice: (217) 244-5870
> > > Fax: (217) 333-0248
> > >
> > > E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu
> > >
> > > WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
> > > WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 

- 

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Received on Wednesday, 2 October 2002 06:55:15 UTC