Re: New Window inform

Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
> Ahh
> Good point.  This was a serious problem before but is being addressed in
> new browsers.   
> 
> We should see how well it is now covered and do a fact sheet on this.
> If it is a dead issue we should declare it dead.    I would like to see
> a fact sheet though pulling this together.  I worry about dropping
> something because it isn't a problem on some computers or some very high
> end screen readers.
> 
> I presume this is a spec in the User Agent guidelines ( I don't
> remember)

See the various checkpoints of Guideline 5 [1], in particular
chckpoint 5.3:

5.3 Manual viewport open only. (P2)

    1. Allow configuration so that viewports only open
       on explicit user request.
    2. When configured per provision one of this checkpoint,
       instead of opening a viewport automatically, alert the user
       and allow the user to open it with an explicit request (e.g.,
       by confirming a prompt or following a link generated by the
       user agent).
    3. Allow the user to close viewports.


[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/guidelines#gl-user-control-ui

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phill Jenkins [mailto:pjenkins@us.ibm.com] 
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 1:46 PM
> To: gv@trace.wisc.edu
> Cc: Andi Snow-Weaver; wai-wcag-editors@w3.org; 'Charles McCathieNevile'
> Subject: RE: New Window inform
> 
> 
> 
>>It also needs to be mentioned closer to the event don't you think?
> 
> 
> My point (and that of Charles I think) is that the browser is and can do
> the alerting and the user has some control over the browser or choice of
> browser.  Mentioning it closer to the event should not be an requirement
> for the author.  If the author adds some text, and the browser adds some
> warning, then 1, the user gets it twice, and 2. has no way to turn off
> the
> author's warning.
> 
> I had some experience when designing an on-line course on accessibility.
> The e-learning design team we worked with had conducted studies that
> showed
> users preferred to have the "Help" and "Tools" open in new separate
> windows
> so they could be used in concert with the main lesson content.  This
> design
> is nothing new, it's part of standard software GUI design that's been
> around for years.
> 
> Us professionals don't go around saying that Windows software developers
> must stop opening up new dialogs for user help and such,  nor do we say
> that it must be mentioned near the event.  The behavior of the Windows
> software application is usually documented somewhere and rarely read
> either.  The "about this site" may not be the best place to describe the
> consistent behavior of the particular web site or application, but it
> has
> to be somewhere intuitive - where would recommend?
> 
> That it be documented is the requirement for the author, we already have
> one for consistency.
> 
> 
>>Actually - it would be nice to have some way of marking those for
>>everyone --- but we don't make rules for everyone.
> 
> 
> I consider the User Agent guidelines for everyone since they affect all
> user agents.  So, all of us will have the opportunity to turn on or off
> the
> behavior we like or choose another browser.  NS/Mozilla. IE, iCab, and
> Opera (sometime with plug-ins) are all making good progress here.
> 
> Regards,
> Phill Jenkins,  (512) 838-4517
> IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center
> 11501 Burnet Rd,  Austin TX  78758    http://www.ibm.com/able
> 
> 
> 
> Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu> on 09/13/2002 12:05:35 PM
> 
> Please respond to gv@trace.wisc.edu
> 
> To:    Phill Jenkins/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Andi
> Snow-Weaver/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
>        wai-wcag-editors@w3.org
> cc:    "'Charles McCathieNevile'" <charles@w3.org>
> Subject:    RE: New Window inform
> 
> 
> 
> It also needs to be mentioned closer to the event don't you think?   No
> one reads the about pages.     If a link will open a new window, it
> should say that near the link  (or on the page if the page has lots of
> them)
> 
> Actually - it would be nice to have some way of marking those for
> everyone --- but we don't make rules for everyone.
> 
> Yes?
> 
> Gregg
> 
> ------------------------------------
> Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> Ind Engr - Biomed - Trace, Univ of Wis
> gv@trace.wisc.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wai-wcag-editor-request@w3.org
> [mailto:wai-wcag-editor-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Phill Jenkins
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:04 AM
> To: Andi Snow-Weaver; wai-wcag-editors@w3.org
> Cc: Charles McCathieNevile
> Subject: RE: New Window inform
> 
> 
> 
> Andi, I think this [1] means there is an issue with WCAG 2.0 latest
> draft
> because it [2] still requires the "author" to identify in context that
> there will be extreme changes (i.e., open a new window) in response to
> the
> user's action.  I believe the problem with the checkpoint and success
> criteria is in the lack of a definition for "in context" and what is the
> author's responsibility.  I believe it is good usability practice to
> include in the text in "about this site" that when clicking certain
> links
> that they will open in a new window, for example, clicking the "help"
> link
> will open a new window so that the "help information" is also available
> without losing your place while filling out a form.  Helpful orientation
> information is very subjective.
> 
> I also believe this is a candidate for the WCAG 1.0 errata [3] and/or
> second edition.
> 
> Regards,
> Phill Jenkins,  (512) 838-4517
> IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center
> 11501 Burnet Rd,  Austin TX  78758    http://www.ibm.com/able
> 
> [1] "New Window inform" thread on interest group list
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2002JulSep/0793.html
> [2] WCAG 2.0 public draft
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/#consistent-responses
> [3] WCAG 1.0 errata http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WAI-WEBCONTENT-ERRATA
> 
> ---------------------- Forwarded by Phill Jenkins/Austin/IBM on
> 09/13/2002
> 10:44 AM ---------------------------
> 
> Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>@w3.org on 09/13/2002 06:25:27 AM
> 
> Sent by:    w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
> 
> 
> To:    Steve Vosloo <stevenvosloo@yahoo.com>
> cc:    <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> Subject:    RE: New Window inform
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't think you can be in double-A conformance without satisfying
> each
> Priority 2 checkpoint. The conformance section is pretty
> straightforward.
> If
> you say that things are WCAG double-A when they are demonstrably not, it
> may
> not be a good idea in the medium term...
> 
> What the checkpoint says is that you must inform the user "until user
> agents"
> do it themselves. Remember than back in 1998 and 1999 when the
> guidelines
> were being finished this was looking forward to the day when user agents
> did
> this, and the requirement on authors would vanish.
> 
> The problem for users is that unless they know they are having a new
> window
> w
> opened they get confused and disoriented. I know, because it happens to
> me.
> And I can see the screen and find out what is happening. So I use a user
> agent (iCab) that does tell me when a New Window will be opened (unless
> people do stupid things like link to a piece of javascript), and one
> (Amaya)
> that just won't follow instructions to make new windows except from the
> user.
> 
> I think that a case could be made that user agents can inform the user,
> and
> therefore the checkpoint is not applicable. At the moment the market
> penetration of such user agents (Amaya, snufkin-enhanced Explorer, iCab,
> etc)
> is pretty poor, so it is a very weak case that I would expect to fail
> under
> real-world testing...
> 
> But not for too much longer I hope. Browsers are improving. The work
> being
> done on the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines includes making sure
> that
> there are implementations of the requirements, and if you want a
> particular
> feature you should be able to find a browser that does it. (If you want
> all
> of them then it is like any other standard - complain to your browser
> maker).
> 
> cheers
> 
> Chaals
> 
> On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Steve Vosloo wrote:
> 
> 
>>In summary, some user agents that create a list of links for a page do
>>not open those links in pop-up or new windows, so including the warning
>>as part of the link would not be correct. Other user agents
>>automatically inform the user of pop-up or new windows, so including
> 
> the
> 
>>warning as part of the link would result in a double description, e.g.
>>"Link: Microsoft, opens in a new window. Link opens a new browser
>>window."
>>
>>Until a workable solution is found, it seems the best is to leave it up
>>to the user agent to inform the user of a pop-up or new window.
>>
>>If we have good motivation for an action, as above, do you feel that
> 
> one
> 
>>can still award Level-AA compliance even though this checkpoint has not
>>been strictly adhered to?
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
>>>[mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd G. Rasmussen
>>>Sent: 10 September 2002 09:14 PM
>>>To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>>>Subject: Re: New Window inform
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>A Windows user can go into the Start, Settings, Control
>>>Panel, Sounds applet and assign sounds  or earcons to the
>>>"open program" and "close program" events.  Good sound
>>>effects are in the Utopia and Robots sound schemes.  While
>>>there, assign the "program error" sound from the Robots
>>>scheme to program errors, and you have a crash which really
>>>sounds like a crash.
>>>
>>>These earcons don't warn you that a new window is about to
>>>open, but tell you when your actions or the actions of an
>>>advertisement have opened another window.  The annoying thing
>>>is that, in your effort to close various windows, you will
>>>end up closing too many and end your browsing session prematurely.
>>>
>>>I would not put a warning inside a hyperlink.  Perhaps just after it.
>>>
>>>At 09:19 PM 9/9/02 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Does anyone know which user agents don't warn the user about a new
>>>>>window/popup?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There is only one user agent these days, as far as most people are
>>>>concerned, and it doesn't.
>>>>
>>>>In practice, no mass market browser is going to warn people
>>>
>>>by default
>>>
>>>>as those authors not forced to obey Section 508 would not
>>>
>>>stand for its
>>>
>>>>getting in the way of their designs.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Braille is the solution to the digital divide.
>>>Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer
>>>National Library Service f/t Blind and Physically Handicapped
>>>Library of Congress    (202) 707-0535  <lras@loc.gov>
>>><http://www.loc.gov/nls>
>>>HOME:  <lras@sprynet.com>       <http://lras.home.sprynet.com>
>>>
> 
> --
> Charles McCathieNevile  http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  tel: +61 409
> 134
> 136
> SWAD-E http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe ------------ WAI
> http://www.w3.org/WAI
>  21 Mitchell street, FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia  fax(fr): +33 4 92 38
> 78
>  22
>  W3C, 2004 Route des Lucioles, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Ian Jacobs (ij@w3.org)   http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel:                     +1 718 260-9447

Received on Monday, 16 September 2002 08:15:16 UTC