RE: New Window inform

Ahh
Good point.  This was a serious problem before but is being addressed in
new browsers.   

We should see how well it is now covered and do a fact sheet on this.
If it is a dead issue we should declare it dead.    I would like to see
a fact sheet though pulling this together.  I worry about dropping
something because it isn't a problem on some computers or some very high
end screen readers.

I presume this is a spec in the User Agent guidelines ( I don't
remember)

 
Gregg

------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Ind Engr - Biomed - Trace, Univ of Wis
gv@trace.wisc.edu

 


-----Original Message-----
From: Phill Jenkins [mailto:pjenkins@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 1:46 PM
To: gv@trace.wisc.edu
Cc: Andi Snow-Weaver; wai-wcag-editors@w3.org; 'Charles McCathieNevile'
Subject: RE: New Window inform


> It also needs to be mentioned closer to the event don't you think?

My point (and that of Charles I think) is that the browser is and can do
the alerting and the user has some control over the browser or choice of
browser.  Mentioning it closer to the event should not be an requirement
for the author.  If the author adds some text, and the browser adds some
warning, then 1, the user gets it twice, and 2. has no way to turn off
the
author's warning.

I had some experience when designing an on-line course on accessibility.
The e-learning design team we worked with had conducted studies that
showed
users preferred to have the "Help" and "Tools" open in new separate
windows
so they could be used in concert with the main lesson content.  This
design
is nothing new, it's part of standard software GUI design that's been
around for years.

Us professionals don't go around saying that Windows software developers
must stop opening up new dialogs for user help and such,  nor do we say
that it must be mentioned near the event.  The behavior of the Windows
software application is usually documented somewhere and rarely read
either.  The "about this site" may not be the best place to describe the
consistent behavior of the particular web site or application, but it
has
to be somewhere intuitive - where would recommend?

That it be documented is the requirement for the author, we already have
one for consistency.

>Actually - it would be nice to have some way of marking those for
>everyone --- but we don't make rules for everyone.

I consider the User Agent guidelines for everyone since they affect all
user agents.  So, all of us will have the opportunity to turn on or off
the
behavior we like or choose another browser.  NS/Mozilla. IE, iCab, and
Opera (sometime with plug-ins) are all making good progress here.

Regards,
Phill Jenkins,  (512) 838-4517
IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center
11501 Burnet Rd,  Austin TX  78758    http://www.ibm.com/able



Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu> on 09/13/2002 12:05:35 PM

Please respond to gv@trace.wisc.edu

To:    Phill Jenkins/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Andi
Snow-Weaver/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
       wai-wcag-editors@w3.org
cc:    "'Charles McCathieNevile'" <charles@w3.org>
Subject:    RE: New Window inform



It also needs to be mentioned closer to the event don't you think?   No
one reads the about pages.     If a link will open a new window, it
should say that near the link  (or on the page if the page has lots of
them)

Actually - it would be nice to have some way of marking those for
everyone --- but we don't make rules for everyone.

Yes?

Gregg

------------------------------------
Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Ind Engr - Biomed - Trace, Univ of Wis
gv@trace.wisc.edu




-----Original Message-----
From: wai-wcag-editor-request@w3.org
[mailto:wai-wcag-editor-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Phill Jenkins
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:04 AM
To: Andi Snow-Weaver; wai-wcag-editors@w3.org
Cc: Charles McCathieNevile
Subject: RE: New Window inform



Andi, I think this [1] means there is an issue with WCAG 2.0 latest
draft
because it [2] still requires the "author" to identify in context that
there will be extreme changes (i.e., open a new window) in response to
the
user's action.  I believe the problem with the checkpoint and success
criteria is in the lack of a definition for "in context" and what is the
author's responsibility.  I believe it is good usability practice to
include in the text in "about this site" that when clicking certain
links
that they will open in a new window, for example, clicking the "help"
link
will open a new window so that the "help information" is also available
without losing your place while filling out a form.  Helpful orientation
information is very subjective.

I also believe this is a candidate for the WCAG 1.0 errata [3] and/or
second edition.

Regards,
Phill Jenkins,  (512) 838-4517
IBM Research Division - Accessibility Center
11501 Burnet Rd,  Austin TX  78758    http://www.ibm.com/able

[1] "New Window inform" thread on interest group list
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2002JulSep/0793.html
[2] WCAG 2.0 public draft
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/#consistent-responses
[3] WCAG 1.0 errata http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WAI-WEBCONTENT-ERRATA

---------------------- Forwarded by Phill Jenkins/Austin/IBM on
09/13/2002
10:44 AM ---------------------------

Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>@w3.org on 09/13/2002 06:25:27 AM

Sent by:    w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org


To:    Steve Vosloo <stevenvosloo@yahoo.com>
cc:    <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Subject:    RE: New Window inform




No, I don't think you can be in double-A conformance without satisfying
each
Priority 2 checkpoint. The conformance section is pretty
straightforward.
If
you say that things are WCAG double-A when they are demonstrably not, it
may
not be a good idea in the medium term...

What the checkpoint says is that you must inform the user "until user
agents"
do it themselves. Remember than back in 1998 and 1999 when the
guidelines
were being finished this was looking forward to the day when user agents
did
this, and the requirement on authors would vanish.

The problem for users is that unless they know they are having a new
window
w
opened they get confused and disoriented. I know, because it happens to
me.
And I can see the screen and find out what is happening. So I use a user
agent (iCab) that does tell me when a New Window will be opened (unless
people do stupid things like link to a piece of javascript), and one
(Amaya)
that just won't follow instructions to make new windows except from the
user.

I think that a case could be made that user agents can inform the user,
and
therefore the checkpoint is not applicable. At the moment the market
penetration of such user agents (Amaya, snufkin-enhanced Explorer, iCab,
etc)
is pretty poor, so it is a very weak case that I would expect to fail
under
real-world testing...

But not for too much longer I hope. Browsers are improving. The work
being
done on the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines includes making sure
that
there are implementations of the requirements, and if you want a
particular
feature you should be able to find a browser that does it. (If you want
all
of them then it is like any other standard - complain to your browser
maker).

cheers

Chaals

On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Steve Vosloo wrote:

>
>In summary, some user agents that create a list of links for a page do
>not open those links in pop-up or new windows, so including the warning
>as part of the link would not be correct. Other user agents
>automatically inform the user of pop-up or new windows, so including
the
>warning as part of the link would result in a double description, e.g.
>"Link: Microsoft, opens in a new window. Link opens a new browser
>window."
>
>Until a workable solution is found, it seems the best is to leave it up
>to the user agent to inform the user of a pop-up or new window.
>
>If we have good motivation for an action, as above, do you feel that
one
>can still award Level-AA compliance even though this checkpoint has not
>been strictly adhered to?
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
>> [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd G. Rasmussen
>> Sent: 10 September 2002 09:14 PM
>> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>> Subject: Re: New Window inform
>>
>>
>>
>> A Windows user can go into the Start, Settings, Control
>> Panel, Sounds applet and assign sounds  or earcons to the
>> "open program" and "close program" events.  Good sound
>> effects are in the Utopia and Robots sound schemes.  While
>> there, assign the "program error" sound from the Robots
>> scheme to program errors, and you have a crash which really
>> sounds like a crash.
>>
>> These earcons don't warn you that a new window is about to
>> open, but tell you when your actions or the actions of an
>> advertisement have opened another window.  The annoying thing
>> is that, in your effort to close various windows, you will
>> end up closing too many and end your browsing session prematurely.
>>
>> I would not put a warning inside a hyperlink.  Perhaps just after it.
>>
>> At 09:19 PM 9/9/02 +0100, you wrote:
>> >
>> >> Does anyone know which user agents don't warn the user about a new
>> >> window/popup?
>> >>
>> >
>> >There is only one user agent these days, as far as most people are
>> >concerned, and it doesn't.
>> >
>> >In practice, no mass market browser is going to warn people
>> by default
>> >as those authors not forced to obey Section 508 would not
>> stand for its
>> >getting in the way of their designs.
>> >
>> >
>> Braille is the solution to the digital divide.
>> Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer
>> National Library Service f/t Blind and Physically Handicapped
>> Library of Congress    (202) 707-0535  <lras@loc.gov>
>> <http://www.loc.gov/nls>
>> HOME:  <lras@sprynet.com>       <http://lras.home.sprynet.com>
>>
>

--
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Received on Friday, 13 September 2002 16:07:00 UTC