- From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2014 13:46:56 -0500
- To: WAI-ua <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CA+=z1W=arvmmRn0ai58UE9C7PuSk5=mGb1oc8pawncK=DqKnww@mail.gmail.com>
from http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html User Agent Accessibility
Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 03 Jul 2014
See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-irc>
Attendees
PresentJeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, KFordRegretsJanChair
SV_MEETING_CHAIRScribeallanj, kford
Contents
- Topics <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#agenda>
1. Face to Face at TPAC
<http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item01>
2. F2F at TPAC <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item02>
3. document comments
<http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item03>
4. propose applicability note
<http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item04>
5. 1.4 proposal <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item05>
6. 1.4.2 <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item06>
7. 1.4.3 <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item07>
8. 1.4.5 <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item08>
9. 1.4.6 <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item09>
10. 1.10.1 <http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#item10>
- Summary of Action Items
<http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
------------------------------
<trackbot> Date: 03 July 2014
<allanj> scribe: allanj
<kford> scribe: kford
Face to Face at TPAC F2F at TPAC
<allanj> js: is a go, please register
JS: F2F is a go. If you want W3C help get your estimates and requests in.
<allanj> ... we can start on Sunday, thanks to Adobe
JS: Adobe giving us an extra day of office space if we want to start on
Sunday.
Event would be starting Sun Oct 26.
<allanj> https://www.regonline.com/builder/site/Default.aspx?EventID=1574227
<allanj> http://www.w3.org/2014/11/TPAC/
document comments
JA: Let's take up some of these proposals.
propose applicability note
<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0066.html
<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0069.html
<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0073.html
<allanj> js, jr, gl +1
I am good with this too.
<allanj> ja, kp +1
<jeanne> *ACTION:* Jeanne to add new conformance applicability notes from
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0069.html
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-989 - Add new conformance applicability notes
from http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/w3c-wai-ua/2014aprjun/0069.html
[on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-07-10].
*RESOLUTION: Accept the text of the second link form Jim 0069.html*
1.4 proposal
<allanj> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0075.html
<allanj> 1.4.1 +1
<allanj> close action-979
<trackbot> Closed action-979.
<allanj> all Ok
1.4.2
JS going over changes in proposal.
<allanj> +1
<jeanne> Font family, choosing from at least all platform fonts
<jeanne> +1
<Greg> The phrase "Font family, choosing from all platform fonts", we don't
want to imply they can't choose from other, UA-provided or
downloaded-on-demand fonts.
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to make changes to 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 adding "at
least" all platform fonts to 1.4.2 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-990 - Make changes to 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 adding "at
least" all platform fonts to 1.4.2 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-07-10].
*RESOLUTION: Proposal for 1.4 changes accepted
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0075.html
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0075.html>*
1.4.3
<allanj> proposed:
<allanj> 1.4.3 Text Blocks (Globally): The user can globally set all of the
<allanj> following characteristics of visually rendered blocks of text:
(Level AA)
<allanj> * Character spacing, choosing from a range with at least five
values
<allanj> * Justification (left, right, or full)
<allanj> * Margins around blocks of text
<allanj> UAWG Note: Probably need definition of Blocks of text
<allanj> UAWG Note: add Wayne's recommendation of the range (MIN 0.02 to
MAX 0.1
<allanj> of the base character width) to Implementing Intent section.
<allanj> js: need definition of 'blocks of text'
<Greg> Justification (left or right, including turning off full
justification)
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to implement changes to 1.4.3 as per
2014AprJun/0075.html changing Justification to Justification (left or
right, including turning off full justification). [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-991 - Implement changes to 1.4.3 as per
2014aprjun/0075.html changing justification to justification (left or
right, including turning off full justification). [on Jeanne F Spellman -
due 2014-07-10].
<Greg> I'd like to clarify somewhere that by "left, right, or full" that we
mean the user can turn those off, not just turn them on, and thus can avoid
full justification.
<Greg> I certainly don't want a UA to feel compelled to implement full
justification because our wording was sloppy and made it sound like it was
required, and I want to make sure that users can turn full justification
off.
group talking about what's been done with othyer changes and where we stand.
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to write definition of blocks of text [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-992 - Write definition of blocks of text [on
Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-07-10].
<Greg> Sort of weird that we ended up requiring link text size to be
adjustable, just because of how we lumped it in with headings and input
fields.
1.4.5
JS again talks about what was changed. Not scribing every little change. It
is in the document.
<allanj> proposed:
<jeanne> Advanced text formatting (by Element): The user can set all of the
<jeanne> following characteristics of visually rendered text content [for
main
<jeanne> text] and for text element types including at least headings, input
<jeanne> fields and links: (Level AAA) - delete for main text
<allanj> 1.4.6 Advanced text formatting (by Element): The user can set all
of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text
element types including at least headings, input fields and links: (Level
AAA)
<allanj> * Text style (underline, italic, bold)
<allanj> * Borders
<jeanne> text style is covered under 1.4.2
<allanj> remove 1.4.6 because it is just borders?
JA: We said throughout text styles becuase that was covered in 142 and what
do others think?
... Do we have objections to removing 1.4.5.
GL going over what is left to be covvered by 1.4.5.
GL talking about active input fields and how do we make those easy?
JS: do we cover those under 1.3.1?
JA: Yes.
<Greg> 1.4.5 is left being only borders for headings, input fields, and
links. My concern was providing some way to make text input fields easy to
find on the page, and borders are one method of that, particularly if
something was using the old Solaris (I think) style where input fields were
marked only with underlines. But yes, 1.3.1 might handle that well enough.
JS: Going to add a note to 1.4.6 to say highlighting borders covered in
1.3.1.
<Greg> Borders is 1.3.2 which is AA, but that's no lower than 1.4.5 was.
*RESOLUTION: group dropping 1.4.5 because we have it covered elsewhere*
1.4.6
<allanj> proposed:1.4.6 Advanced text formatting (Globally): The user can
globally set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered
blocks of text: (Level AAA)
<allanj> * Text style (underline, italic, bold)
<allanj> * Capitalization (overriding upper case and small caps style)
<allanj> * Word-breaking properties (auto-hyphenation)
<allanj> * Borders
<jeanne> * Word-breaking properties (auto-hyphenation, on and off)
<Greg> We need to be consistent about saying "on and off": always say it or
never, so that we don't imply a meaningful difference between when we do
and when we don't.
<jeanne> GL: I think we add inconsistency in saying on and off.
JA: After discussion we are back to proposed 1.4.6. Any objections?
<Greg> Do we want the user to be able to control all forms of word-breaking
(e.g. soft hypen characters), or just auto-hyphenation?
<allanj> scribe: allanj
<Greg> We should probably either say "Word-breaking properties (e.g.
optional hyphen characters, auto-hyphenation)" or merely "Auto-hyphenation".
<Greg> Word is an example of a UA that allows the user to turn
auto-hyphenation on and off.
<Greg> Just to be clear, if we go with "Word-breaking properties (e.g.
auto-hyphenation)" then we're requiring UA to let the user turn off
rendering of soft hyphen characters (at AAA).
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to add the proposed 1.4.6 from
/2014AprJun/0075.html with word breaking "Word-breaking properties (e.g.
Auto-hypenation) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-993 - Add the proposed 1.4.6 from
/2014aprjun/0075.html with word breaking "word-breaking properties (e.g.
auto-hypenation) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-07-10].
*RESOLUTION: Accept 1.4.6 (to be renumbered) with Word-breaking properties
(e.g. auto-hyphenation)*
<jeanne> *ACTION:* jeanne to remove 1.4.5 and renumber 1.4.6 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-994 - Remove 1.4.5 and renumber 1.4.6 [on Jeanne
F Spellman - due 2014-07-10].
1.10.1
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014JulSep/0003.html
jr: I wonder if perhaps we need concrete use cases might help us clarify to
the fundamental issue here.
gl: using 'labels' twice to mean different things
1.10.1 Show Adjacent and Related Text: The *user agent* presents text for
at least the following element relationships: (Level AA)
- adjacent form control labels
- table cell headings
- elements explicitly related in the html
gl: use case - in a table cell, being able to show the related column and
row headers is useful
<jeanne> Courtney has a cognitive disability that makes it difficult for
her to comprehend complex user interfaces. She is completing an online job
application. It is not clear where she should enter her phone number,
because not all the the input fields have text labels. She mouses over a
blank box and sees a tooltip that says "home phone number". She is able to
complete the form.
gl: focus on a form field, hit a key to show the name of the field
<Greg> I'd rewrite the second example to make it clearer what is making the
label non-obvious, e.g. labels above, below, and to the left of the current
input field.
<jeanne> Courtney has a cognitive disability that makes it difficult for
her to comprehend complex user interfaces. She is completing an online job
application. It is not clear where she should enter her phone number,
because the input fields have text labels labels above, below, and to the
left of the current input field. She mouses over the blank box and sees a
tooltip that says "home phone number". She
<jeanne> is able to complete the form.
<Greg> In WD-UAAG20-20080312 it read:
<Greg> 3.4.2 Access Relationships: The user can access information from
explicitly-defined relationships in the content (e.g., what is form
control's label?, what is label's form control?, what is cell's table
header?, etc.). @@Expanded 10.1 in UAAG10@@
<Greg> That was a lot clearer than the current version, in my opinion.
<Greg> Jan Richards jan.richards@utoronto.ca Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008
11:45:10 -0500 (
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0034.html):
<Greg> 2. Allow the user to access information from explicitly-defined
relationships in the content (e.g., label, description, table header, etc.).
<Greg> By WD-UAAG20-20090311 It read:
<Greg> 3.3.1 Access Relationships: Provide access to explicitly-defined
relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g., show form
control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers,
etc.). (Level A)
<Greg> Today:
<Greg> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user can access related elements
based on the user's position in content (e.g. show the label of a form
control, show the headers of a table cell). (Level AA)
js: use can access explicitly-defined relationships based on position in
content
gl: this is way to broad. which relationships are required?
<jeanne> 1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user can access explicitly
related elements based on the user's position in content (e.g. show the
label of a form control, show the headers of a table cell). (Level AA)
ja: forms, tables, aria-describedby, aria-etc
... what should not be exposed?
<Greg> The problem with the March 2008 wording is that it's too broad: we
don't want to require exposing all explicitly-defined relationships,
because there's a HUGE, potentially unlimited number of them, but we also
don't want the UA to be able to comply by only exposing one.
gl: what heading is this paragraph under...defined in markup
... figcaption, legend, and there are more
... explicitly defined relationships are the entire document, named anchors
js: what if we make a list, at least:
1.10.1 Show Related Elements: The user can access explicitly related
elements based on the user's position in content for at least the following:
form labels
table cell headings
aria-describedby
aria-labeledby
legend (fieldset)
figcaption (figure)
caption (table)
<Greg> Access Relationships: The user can access information from
explicitly-defined relationships in the content, including at least the
following: label for a control or image; row and column labels and number
for a table cell...
<Greg> The user can access information from explicitly-defined
relationships in the content, including at least the following: label for a
control or image (e.g. @figcaption for an image, @caption for a table); row
and column labels and number for a table cell...
number for a table cell perhaps location (cell coordinates - row X, column
Y)
js: what is the a11y need of coordinates?
gl: magnification, when you can only see 1 cell, helps with context.
kp: helps with mental map
js: lot of work for calculating context for dynamic, complex, merged tables
gl: trying to solve the what if you don't have a label to fall back on
<Greg> I know from interacting with coworkers who cannot see a whole table
that getting the row and column names/numbers when labels are unavailable
was useful, but I won't fight to add it, especially here as it doesn't
really fit the current title of the SC.
kp: in excel have lots of problems locateing self and navigate with speech.
knowing location context would be useful
js: sounds like a new SC
gl: to find the label of row and column headers they already have to
calculate the location
js: don't want to add new things
<Greg> Jeanne's point is valid that it could be tricky to figure out which
labels to read, if the table is complex with a lot of merged cells, header
groups, etc. That's true whether we're asking them to present labels or
numbers.
js: even if it is a perception of more work.
<jeanne> Access Relationships: The user can access information from
explicitly-defined relationships in the content, including at least the
following: label for a control or image; row and column labels and number
for a table cell...
<scribe> *ACTION:* greg to recraft 1.10.1 based on today's discussion
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-995 - Recraft 1.10.1 based on today's discussion
[on Greg Lowney - due 2014-07-10].
<jeanne> Access Relationships: The user can access information from
explicitly-defined relationships in the content, including at least the
following: label for a control or image; row and column labels for a table
cell...
regrets for next week, kim and jeanne
Summary of Action Items *[NEW]* *ACTION:* greg to recraft 1.10.1 based on
today's discussion [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action07]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Jeanne to add new conformance applicability notes from
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014AprJun/0069.html
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action01]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to add the proposed 1.4.6 from
/2014AprJun/0075.html with word breaking "Word-breaking properties (e.g.
Auto-hypenation) [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action05]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to implement changes to 1.4.3 as per
2014AprJun/0075.html changing Justification to Justification (left or
right, including turning off full justification). [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action03]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to make changes to 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 adding "at
least" all platform fonts to 1.4.2 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action02]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to remove 1.4.5 and renumber 1.4.6 [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action06]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jeanne to write definition of blocks of text [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/07/03-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[End of minutes]
--
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315 fax: 512.206.9264 http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964
Received on Thursday, 3 July 2014 18:47:21 UTC