- From: Jeanne Spellman <jeanne@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2013 20:35:54 -0400
- To: UAWG <w3c-wai-ua@w3.org>
MInutes: http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html
Text of Minutes
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
27 Aug 2013
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-irc
Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
Jim & Kelly
Scribe
kford, JR, Jan, greg, allanj
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]OCAD 48 5.1.2
2. [5]OCAD 46 4.1.6
3. [6]OCAD45 re 4.1.5
4. [7]OCAD43 re 3.4.1
5. [8]OCAD39 re 2.11.8
6. [9]OCAD34 and OCAD35, re 2.10.1 and 2.10.2
7. [10]OCAD33 re 2.9.2
8. [11]OCAD31 re 2.8.1
9. [12]OCAD27 re 2.6.1 Access to input methods
10. [13]OCAD26 re 2.5.3
11. [14]OCAD25 re 2.5.2
12. [15]OCAD24 re 1.10.2
13. [16]OCAD22 re 2.3.5
14. [17]OCAD16 re 2.1.4
* [18]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 27 August 2013
<jeanne> meeting: UAWG F2F
<kford> Scribe: kford
<Jan> [19]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/UAAG20/
[19] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/UAAG20/
<Jan> [20]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD.html
[20] http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/commentsWD.html
OCAD 48 5.1.2
Group talking about different locations for this point.
Group sees some value in moving standards compliance earlier
Group talking about numbering.
And perceived importance.
KP: We covered some of the suggestions around standards in the
last editorial pass.
Resolution: Groupdecided to leave 5.1.2 as is and OCAD is
closed.
OCAD 46 4.1.6
<Jan> ACTION: Jeanne to check capitalization of handle of 5.1.2
and 5.1.3 [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-870 - Check capitalization of handle
of 5.1.2 and 5.1.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-09-03].
JA 4.1.6 is related onscreen text
<AllanJ> 4.1.6 OCAD46
<AllanJ> proposal not accepted. 416 items are related to
onscreen text.
<AllanJ> 412 are related to user interface components that have
a name, role, state.
GL: 4.1.6 K seems a bit quirksome.
Group talks about history.
JAN: Going to be hard to find implamentations.
More discussion from GL and JR if parts of 4.1.6 are to
platform specific.
More discussion about separating 4.1.2 and 4.1.6
JR: We do this separation in speech.
JR reads from what we have in the doc around speech.
JR: The speech model is an understandable model.
KP I agree
Discussion about keeping them separate, similar to what we do
with speech synthesis.
JR now describing how ATAG conveys similar info from this area.
KP asking if 4.1.1 covers this info.
KP asking if 4.1.1 covers this info.Selection and focus are
really important. They shuld be moved to 4.1.2 and then move
leave 4.1.6
<Jan> 4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface
components including user interface, rendered content,
generated content, and alternative content, the user agent
makes available the following, via a platform accessibility
service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e)
selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
Group working on reworiding for 4.1.2 and 4.1.6
<Jan> 4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface
components including the user agent user interface, rendered
content, generated content, and unrendered alternative content,
the user agent makes available the following, via a platform
accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d)
value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A)
<Jan> 4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface
components including the user agent user interface, rendered
content, and generated content, the user agent makes available
the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name,
(b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus.
(Level A)
<Jan> 4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface
components including the user agent user interface, rendered
content, and generated content, the user agent makes available
the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name,
(b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus.
(Level A)
<Jan> 4.1.2 Expose basic properties: For all user interface
components, including the user agent user interface, rendered
content, and generated content, the user agent makes available
the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name,
(b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus.
(Level A)
<Jan> 4.1.6 Expose additional properties: For all user
interface components, including the user agent user interface,
rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes
available the following, via a platform accessibility service,
if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the
bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b)
font family of text, (c) font size of...
<Jan> ...text, (d) foreground color of text, (e) background
color of text, (f) highlighting, (g) keyboard commands. (Level
AA)
<Jan> 4.1.6 Expose additional properties: For all user
interface components, including the user agent user interface,
rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes
available the following, via a platform accessibility service,
if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the
bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b)
font family of text, (c) font size of...
<Jan> ...text, (d) foreground color of text, (e) background
color of text, (f) highlighting, (g) keyboard commands. (Level
AA)
<Jan> 4.1.6 Expose additional properties: For all user
interface components, including the user agent user interface,
rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes
available the following, via a platform accessibility service,
if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the
bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b)
font family of text, (c) font size of...
<Jan> ...text, (d) foreground and background colors for text,
(e) highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
<Jan> 4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For all user
interface components, including the user agent user interface,
rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes
available the following, via a platform accessibility service,
if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the
bounding dimensions and coordinates of onscreen elements, (b)
font family of text, (c) font size of...
<Jan> ...text, (d) foreground and background colors of text,
(e) highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)
<Jan> 4.1.2 Expose Basic Properties: For all user interface
components, including the user agent user interface, rendered
content, and generated content, the user agent makes available
the following, via a platform accessibility service: (a) name,
(b) role, (c) state, (d) value, (e) selection, (f) focus.
(Level A)
<Jan> 4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For all user
interface components, including the user agent user interface,
rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes
available the following, via a platform accessibility service,
if the properties are supported by the service: (a) the
bounding dimensions and coordinates, (b) font family of text,
(c) font size of text, (d) foreground...
<Jan> ...and background colors of text, (e) highlighting, (f)
keyboard commands. (Level AA)
<Jan> 4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For all user
interface components, including the user agent user interface,
rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes
available the following, via a platform accessibility service,
if the properties are supported by the service: (a) bounding
dimensions and coordinates, (b) font family of text, (c) font
size of text, (d) foreground and...
<Jan> ...background colors of text, (e) highlighting, (f)
keyboard commands. (Level AA)
<scribe> Scribe: JR
<Jan> Scribe: Jan
Resolution: All agree to use "4.1.2 Expose Basic Properties:
For all user interface components, including the user agent
user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the
user agent makes available the following, via a platform
accessibility service: (a) name, (b) role, (c) state, (d)
value, (e) selection, (f) focus. (Level A) "
... All agree to use "4.1.6 Expose Additional Properties: For
all user interface components, including the user agent user
interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user
agent makes available the following, via a platform
accessibility service, if the properties are supported by the
service: (a) bounding dimensions and coordinates, (b) font
family of text, (c) font size...
... of text, (d) foreground and background colors of text, (e)
highlighting, (f) keyboard commands. (Level AA)"
<jeanne>
[22]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG
20130827.html
[22]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG20130827.html
<jeanne> todays Master document <-
[23]http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG
20130827.html
[23]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/ED-UAAG20-20130827/MasterUAAG20130827.html
<Admin> 4.1.6 add to end of Intent:
<Admin> Keyboard commands include direct keyboard commands
(e.g. Control-f to select the find box) and keyboard sequences
(e.g. Alternate-f, to call up the File menu and select Save
As).
Definition of: user interface
For the purposes of UAAG 2.0, *user interface* includes both:
- the *user agent user interface*: the controls (e.g. menus,
buttons, prompts, and other components for input and output)
and mechanisms (e.g. selection and focus) provided by the user
agent ("out of the box") that are not created by content.
- the *content user interface*: the renderings created from the
content, such as text, images, form controls, links, and
applets.
The document distinguishes them only where required for
clarity.
The term *user interface control* refers to a component of the
user agent user interface or the content user interface,
distinguished where necessary.
<AllanJ> user agent user interface should include extensions
that become part of the user agent user interface (e.g.
toolbars, additional menus, etc.)
<kford> RRSAgent: JA: Explain the difference between 4.1.1 and
5.1.3
<kford> JA: Explain the difference between 4.1.1 and 5.1.3
<greg> scribe: greg
Jan: 5.1.3 is about UI design, whereas the 4.1 is about
exposing things to assistive technology.
Resolution: 4.1.2 and 4.1.6 are done, having moved some bullet
items from .6 to .2, reduced priority of .6 to AA, and done
significant wordsmithing.
<jeanne> #1 of user interface: the user agent user interface,
the controls (e.g. menus, buttons, prompts, and other
components for input and output) and mechanisms (e.g. selection
and focus) provided by the user agent ("out of the box") that
are not created by content. The user agent user interface also
includes extensions that become part of the user agent user
interface (e.g. toolbars, additional menus,
<jeanne> etc.)
OCAD45 re 4.1.5
re 4.1.5 Write Access: If the user can modify the state or
value of a piece of content through the user interface (e.g.,
by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of
write access is available programmatically. (Level A)
OCAD45: Still isn't possible for ARIA as far as I know.
<AllanJ> This is unrelated to ARIA. it is only to allow AT to
write to the interface the same way a user can when using a
mouse or keyboard.
Jan: It is related to ARIA because UI means both UA UI and
rendered content.
... When an element's state is set using a script, it sets the
ARIA state, causing the UA to set a state in the platform API.
... Joseph says that for Javascript-drawn checkbox, if you
change its state using MSAA the UA does not correctly
communicate this to the author's javascript, because it's not
due to a Check Event.
<AllanJ> is this another case of javascript being a blackhole,
it is unrecognized by user agent or msaa?
Greg: Is that a UA bug?
Jan: More that everything hasn't been worked out yet.
Greg: If AT uses MSAA to check a checkbox, the UA should map
that to an event such as click that it can send to the script,
thus hiding the fact that it was not done by a user with a real
input device.
Jeanne: Seems really important.
Jim: Seems to fall into the broad category of javascript
problems.
Kelly: It will always be the case that there are situations
where things cannot be done programmatically.
Greg: It's important to ensure that AT can be used to edit
content and driving UI the same was as mouse or keyboard, and
we do want to support platform API as the method so that AT can
be written to be app-neutral.
Jan: It isn't worded to require platform API, just some
programmatic method.
Kelly: Can we take ARIA out of the equation?
Jan: Gmail is an example of a complex script that keeps lots of
its own state information.
... Browser has no problem changing state of a checkbox...
Kelly: the browser should expect read and write to everything
through the platform API.
Jan: Agreed.
Kelly: Thus ARIA seems irrelevant here.
Jan: Just calling out that ARIA does not solve the write-access
part of the problem.
... Using ARIA the UA and AT know this element acts as a
checkbox...
... ...maybe this is fine, and authors just need to catch up.
Kelly: I'd leave this, despite implementation questions.
Jan: Just wanted to call this out as an issue.
<AllanJ> +1 leaving it as is
Kelly: I want to find out what Chrome and other UA do, what
events are bubbled to scripts when element state is changed
programmatically.
... The general requirement is still true, this general state
is what we need, we assume recognized part is covered somewhere
else (at a high level)...
Greg: Despite the wording of the comment, this is not about
ARIA but about whether scripts get notified and *can* handle it
correctly when element state is changed programmatically by
anything other than the script itself.
Jan: Correct.
Kelly: I think we're okay on this.
Resolution: No change. The general requirement is still true.
Scripts need to be notified by the browser when element state
is changed, including changed programmatically.
OCAD43 re 3.4.1
3.4.1 Avoid unpredictable focus: The user can prevent focus
changes that are not a result of explicit user request. (Level
A)
OCAD43: This seems like the superset (and so the possible
replacement) of 1.8.9 and 2.1.4.
1.8.9 Open on Request: The user can specify whether author
content can open new top-level viewports (e.g. windows or
tabs). (Level AA)
2.1.4 Separate Selection from Activation: The user can specify
that focus and selection can be moved without causing further
changes in focus, selection, or the state of controls, by
either the user agent or author content. (Level A)
<AllanJ> agree that 3.4.1 is the more general case that
includes 1.8.9 (189 should be removed) and is only about focus
changes. except 189 allows configuration??
<AllanJ> 2.1.4 is about change in state of selection for radio
buttons and checkboxes when an item receives focus. this is
different than moving focus in an unpredictable manner. 2.1.4
should remain as is.
Jim: Agreed 3.1.4 is a more general case that includes 1.8.9,
the latter could be removed, except 1.8.9 allows configuration
as well.
... opening a new viewport changes focus...
Greg: Opening a new viewport may not change focus, based on UA
configuration as well as scripted behaviors.
Jan: 3.4.1 is alone in 3.4 which is about predictable
behaviors. Could anything else fit there?
Greg: Examples of unpredictable behavior might include changing
visible portion when window resized, random tab order when not
specified by author, allowing scripts to close windows or tabs,
etc.
Kim: Tons of examples for 3.4.1 in the Implementing document.
Most along the Perceivable lines.
Jan: 1.8.9 and 2.1.4 are separate enough that they deserves to
live.
Kim: Each is necessary in its context, fitting in and
contributing to the SC around them.
<AllanJ> leaving these alone seems fine to me.
<AllanJ> does no harm currently.
Greg: We could leave it for now; if Jan finds a better way to
combine or reorganize later he can submit that, but it seems we
could move on for now.
Jan: Goal is to streamline and shorten the document, and
prevent readers from being turned off by perceived repetition.
Kelly: two questions: does experience say this will be a
problem, and what's the cost of message around with it at this
point.
Jan: if we felt 3.4.1 was completely covered by 2.1.4, we could
safely remove it and not lose anything, combine the examples,
etc.
Kim: That would be better, taking out the one that has no
context would be better than taking out either of the two
others.
Jeanne: Think these need to stay so that we don't lose the
whole "unpredictable" part.
Resolution: Keep 3.4.1, 2.1.4, and 1.8.9 as are for now; Jan
may come back with proposal later.
OCAD39 re 2.11.8
2.11.8 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media: During
time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks
are available and select or deselect tracks, overriding global
default settings, such as captions or audio descriptions.
(Level AA)
OCAD39: Both the examples in the implementing document are
taken care of by something in GL1.1? So perhaps this can be
removed.
<Jan>
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0
039.html
[24]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2013JulSep/0039.html
Jim: 2.11.8 is covered by 1.1.1 and is an implementation
detail. remove 2.11.8 add example to 1.1.1 Betty, has an
auditory processing problem. she is watching a movie that has
several caption and audio tracks . She pulls up a menu to
determine which is available she switches between audio tracks
until she find one she can understand. She also reinforces the
audio by selecting a caption track.
<Jan> 1.1.1 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to
render any type of recognized alternative content that are
present for a content element. (Level A)
1.1.1 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render
any type of recognized alternative content that are present for
a content element. (Level A)
Greg: They are not the same as 1.1.1 is about all forms of
tracks, whereas 2.11.8 is just alternative content.
... Neither is a subset of the other.
Jan: Our media player handles enabling/disabling alternative
content tracks, but not other tracks, so should it fail?
Greg: A use case a is if a video had a dialog track and a music
track, for example, a person with impaired hearding or
cognition may need to disable the background noises in order to
understand the speech.
Jan: Our tool should never be able to meet AA compliance then?
Greg: We're saying that right now such a tool meets A but not
AA because it doesn't let the user choose to disable arbitrary
tracks.
... Another use case is my former coworker who had seizures
triggered by low-level sounds such as white noise, and so had
to turn off any audio that included fountains, surf, and the
like.
Jan: 2.11.8 is semi-redundant to 1.5.1 Global Volume, which
lets the user turn down (off) audio tracks. However, it doesn't
handle differenent video tracks.
Jan interprets the SC as about alternative content, whereas
Greg interpreted it as being about tracks in general. Greg
emphasized "tracks", while Jan emphasized "such as captions and
audio description".
Jan: Greg's two use cases would be covered by 1.5.1.
<Jan> Jan: Any concerns about audio track levels is handled by
1.5.1 Global Volume: The user can adjust the volume of each
audio tracksindependently of other tracks, relative to the
global volume level set through operating environment
mechanisms. (Level A)
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to move examples from 2.11.8 to 1.1.1
and remove 2.11.8 [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-871 - Move examples from 2.11.8 to
1.1.1 and remove 2.11.8 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due
2013-09-03].
Decided that we don't need 2.11.8's ability to disable video
tracks, because the only important use cases we come up with
involve alternative media, which are covered by 1.1.1.
The important use cases regarding non-alternative audio tracks
are covered by 1.5.1.
Resolution: Delete 2.11.8 and move its examples and intent to
1.1.1.
... Add to 1.5.1 Examples the use case above about a person who
has seizures triggered by low-level sounds such as white noise,
and so has to turn off any audio that included fountains, surf,
and the like.
<AllanJ> example: Betty, has an auditory processing problem.
she is watching a movie that has several caption and audio
tracks . She pulls up a menu to determine which is available
she switches between audio tracks until she find one she n
<AllanJ> understand. She also reinforces the audio by selecting
a caption track.
<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to add Betty example from Jim's email
of 27 August 2013 to 1.1.1 [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-872 - Add betty example from jim's
email of 27 august 2013 to 1.1.1 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due
2013-09-03].
OCAD34 and OCAD35, re 2.10.1 and 2.10.2
2.10.1 Three Flashes or Below Threshold: In its default
configuration, the user agent does not display any user
interface components or recognized content that flashes more
than three times in any one-second period, unless the flash is
below the general flash and red flash thresholds. (Level A)
2.10.2 Three Flashes: In its default configuration, the user
agent does not display any user interface components or
recognized content that flashes more than three times in any
one-second period (regardless of whether not the flash is below
the general flash and red flash thresholds). (Level AAA)
OCAD34: (Re 2.10.1) This is good for the User Agent UI, but
hard to automatically determine in playing content. Perhaps
2.11.1 handles this?
OCAD35: (Re 2.10.2) Could this also then be removed? (related
to comment OCAD34)
<AllanJ> jim's proposal: remove 2.10.1 and promote 2.10.2 to A
(UI should not be doing this anyway, no browser does this so
easy check), and change wording of 2.10.2 to : 2.10.2 Three
Flashes: In its default configuration, the user agent does not
display any user interface components that flashes more than
three times in any one-second period (regardless of whether not
the flash is below the general...
<AllanJ> ...flash and red flash thresholds). (Level A) [removed
'or recognized content' and changed level from AAA to A]
<AllanJ> or keep 2.10.2 at AAA but still change wording. and
keep 2.10.1 but change wording to
<AllanJ> 2.10.1 Three Flashes or Below Threshold:In its default
configuration, the user agent does not display any user
interface components that flashes more than three times in any
one-second period, unless the flash is below general flash and
red flash thresholds. (Level A) [removed "or recognized
content"]
Greg: I'd just cut out the "or rendered content" from both.
Jan: A person who needs to avoid flashing already has the
ability to avoid videos until they approve them.
Resolution: remove "or recognized content" from 2.10.1 and
2.10.2.
OCAD33 re 2.9.2
2.9.2 Retrieval Progress: By default, the user agent shows the
progress of content retrieval. (Level A)
OCAD33: I think this is in the wrong GL, it doesn't allow
time-independent interaction
<Kim> addition to intent of 2.10.1 and 2.10.2:
<Kim> It's recommended that this also be applied to recognized
content.
<AllanJ> jim's comment -
<AllanJ> Agree, this is not about time independence. the
download monitor is informing the user of what is happening.
seems better in Understandable (GL4).
<AllanJ> however,
<AllanJ> Every browser does this. informing the user about
downloading status is basic usability; as long as the download
monitor is programatically accessible and its messaging is
accessible as per our other guidelines. Proposal Delete it.
Greg: Some browsers (e.g. Blackberry browser) don't tell you
how much is being downloaded, just that *something* is being
downloaded.
Kelly: Recommend deleting this SC.
Kim: For some people with disabilities its much more difficult
if they have to start over. especially if they thought it was
necessary when it wasn't.
... I've watched users go around and around and around trying
it over and over again, which can use up their entire day's
maximum amount of typing.
Kelly: The examples included don't make a sufficient case for
differential benefit for people with disabilities.
Jim: The original comment was that this was in the wrong SC,
but couldn't find a good place for it under Perceivable.
Kelly: Willing to keep it if we move it and give it a more
compelling example.
Greg: I think it's important to clarify what this requires:
does it mean percent complete, or it it enough to distinguish
between "done" and "not yet done"?
Kelly: Another reason for keeping it is that one often has a
limited number of times you can ask for help.
Jan: Like the idea of phrasing it as "state of content
retrieval activity", rather than "progress of content
retrieval".
Greg: Should this also be about processing/rendering, as
opposed to just about downloading? For example if the knows the
page is still being rendered and so is still running and not
yet ready to accept input, should the user be told?
Jim: Propose keep the SC but move to 3.2, and add a new example
that Kim will write.
Resolution: Keep SC 2.9.2 but move to 3.2, and add a new
example that Kim will write.
OCAD31 re 2.8.1
<AllanJ> jim's comment: proposal. leave it. it was many SC,
they were combined because they all interrelated and built upon
each other.
2.8.1 Customize display of controls representing user interface
commands, functions, and extensions: The user can customize
which user agent commands, functions, and extensions are
displayed within the user agent's user interface as
follows:(Level AA) (a) Show: The user can choose to display any
controls available within the user agent user interface,
including user-installed extensions. It...
scribe: is acceptable to limit the total number of controls
that are displayed onscreen. (b) Simplify: The user can
simplify the default user interface by choosing to display only
commands essential for basic operation (e.g. by hiding some
control). (c) Reposition: The user can choose to reposition
individual controls within containers (e.g. Toolbars or tool
palettes), as well as reposition the...
... containers themselves to facilitate physical access (e.g.
To minimize hand travel on touch screens, or to facilitate
preferred hand access on handheld mobile devices). (d) Assign
Activation Keystrokes or Gestures: The user can choose to view,
assign or change default keystrokes or gestures used to
activate controls. (e) Reset: The user has the option to reset
the containers and controls...
... to their original configuration.
OCAD31: This SC is probably twice as long as the next biggest.
Has a different feel.
<AllanJ> jim's comment: proposal. leave it. it was many SC,
they were combined because they all interrelated and built upon
each other.
Jan: Okay with that.
<Kim> Extra example for 2.9.2 which is going to be moved to 3.2
Larry has severe repetitive strain injuries and is limited to
typing for only a short period of time every day. He downloads
a long document, and is surprised to see that the download is
progressing slowly. He periodically checks the progress bar
rather having to type to repeatedly check to see if it's done.
Jan: Recognize it would be a lot of work to split 2.8.1 back
into multiple SC, along with their Examples, etc.
... Odd to use "GUI" in the Guideline's title.
Jeanne: Will change that to "graphical" controls.
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to go through the guidelines and remove
any period at the end of a guideline. [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-873 - Go through the guidelines and
remove any period at the end of a guideline. [on Jeanne F
Spellman - due 2013-09-03].
(The group worked on and incorporated Kim's new example for
showing status of retrieval progress.)
OCAD27 re 2.6.1 Access to input methods
2.6.1 Access to input methods: The user can discover recognized
input methods explicitly associated with an element, and
activate those methods in a modality independent manner. (Level
AA)
OCAD27: User can discover?
<AllanJ> jim's proposal: 2.6.1 Access to input methods: The
user can have presented any recognized input methods explicitly
associated with an element, and activate those methods in a
modality independent manner.
Kim: "the user can have presented" is ambiguous language, as it
could be misread as "the user can have (themselves) presented"
as opposed to "the user can have presented (to them)".
Greg: "The user can determine which input methods" or "The user
can identify the input methods"?
Kelly: Can't say "the user can" as the UA doesn't know what the
user is and is not capable of perceiving. The SC can't test the
user.
<Kim> The user agent provides a means for the user to determine
recognized input methods explicitly associated with an element,
and a means for the user to activate those methods in a
modality independent manner.
Resolution: Change 2.6.1 to read "The user agent provides a
means for the user to determine recognized input methods
explicitly associated with an element, and a means for the user
to activate those methods in a modality independent manner."
OCAD26 re 2.5.3
2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation: The user
can configure sets of important elements (including element
types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view.
(Level AAA)
OCAD26: "configure sets of" implies ability to create multiple
sets
<AllanJ> jim's comment: this is level AAA, I know of no UA that
does this. Suspect it will be eliminated because of lack of
implementation.
<AllanJ> Proposal: reword (make it singular)
<AllanJ> 2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation:
The user can configure a set of important elements (including
element types) for structured navigation and
hierarchical/outline view.
Resolution: Change 2.5.3 to read "2.5.3 Configure Elements for
Structural Navigation: The user can configure a set of
important elements (including element types) for structured
navigation and hierarchical/outline view. (AAA)"
OCAD25 re 2.5.2
2.5.3 Configure Elements for Structural Navigation: The user
can configure sets of important elements (including element
types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view.
(Level AAA)
2.5.2 Navigate by structural element: The user agent provides
at least the following types of structural navigation, where
the structure types exist:(Level AA) (a) by heading (b) within
tables
OCAD25: How is this related to 1.10.1?
<AllanJ> jim's comment: proposal: remove reference for 2.5.2 in
Related resources for 1.10.1
Resolution: from "2.5.1 Location in Hierarchy" Remove from
1.10.1 Related Resources.
OCAD24 re 1.10.2
Jan: This reference wasn't actually in 1.10.2 any more, so this
is moot.
Jim: But also propose deleting 1.10.2.
2.5.2 Navigate by structural element: The user agent provides
at least the following types of structural navigation, where
the structure types exist:(Level AA) (a) by heading (b) within
tables
<Jan> 1.10.2 Access to Element Hierarchy: The user can
determine the path of element nodes going from the root element
of the element hierarchy to the currently focused or selected
element. (Level AAA)
Starting over...
<Jan> 2.5.1 Location in Hierarchy: When the user agent is
presenting hierarchical information, but the hierarchy is not
reflected in a standardized fashion in the DOM or platform
accessibility services, the user can view the path of nodes
leading from the root of the hierarchy to a specified element.
(Level AA)
1.10.2 Access to Element Hierarchy: The user can determine the
path of element nodes going from the root element of the
element hierarchy to the currently focused or selected element.
(Level AAA)
The question is, are these redundant to each other?
Greg: I thought the distinction was that one was about
hierarchy of nodes in the DOM, the other was about hierarchy of
information NOT in the DOM such as artists, albums, etc. in a
media library.
2.5.1 is iTunes Library (for example), 1.10.2 is the DOM.
Agreement that they read confusingly similarly.
Greg: I believe this was originally Simon's SC.
... I would not object to deleting 2.5.1, as it's only AAA.
Jim: The comment was that they seemed to be the same, but
discussion reveals they are very different. The question of
whether 2.5.1 should stay, or be reworded, or deleted, is an
open issue.
Jan: If we as a group had trouble understanding it, it is
potentially a problem.
... the original OCAD comment was very minor, only about a
problem in the IER.
<Jan> ACTION: Jan to look at 2.5.1 Location in Hierarchy
including possibly to check in with Simon. [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-874 - Look at 2.5.1 location in
hierarchy including possibly to check in with simon. [on Jan
Richards - due 2013-09-03].
Resolution: closed comment OCAD24, accepted.
OCAD22 re 2.3.5
2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user can override any
keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied
shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user interface
controls, except for conventional bindings for the operating
environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus). The
rebinding options must include single-key and key-plus-modifier
keys if available in the...
scribe: operating environment. The user must be able to save
these settings beyond the current session. (Level AA)
OCAD22: Save requirement should be removed as it is covered by
2.7.1. Also the single-key and key-plus-modifier text seems
like overkill.
<AllanJ> jim's comment: proposal: eliminate last sentence it is
covered by 2.7.1. remove the sentence related to
key-plus-modifier. That is covered by overriding accesskey
which is a key plus modifier.
Greg: I don't think it's obvious to a developer that 2.7.1
would cover this, but if we add to 2.7.1 a list of potentially
overlooked implications such as this, then I'd be okay deleting
this sentence.
Kelly: Concern that if the user needs to be able to rebind the
"D" key, it can make normal functionality unusable.
Kim: Need to redo it, as if you're doing speech recognition and
every key is interpreted as a long series of commands, it's a
real problem.
Jan: It doesn't say it has to allow rebinding of letter keys.
Kelly: It doesn't say otherwise.
<AllanJ> discussion of gmail and recognized keybindings....but
gmail keybindings are all in javascipt and the browser is
unaware of the keybindings.
<AllanJ> scribe: allanj
kp: there are more webapps using single key keybindings. these
are a huge problem
<greg> Kim: Increasing number of web apps use single letter
keys as command, and that's a problem.
<scribe> scribe: greg
<scribe> scribe: allanj
jim describes gmail (single keys turned on) and google chat
conflicting.
greg: modal commands that are context sensitive are a problem
kp: single letter commands are becoming a nightmare
srcibe: gret
<scribe> scribe: greg
Kim: Would be fine narrowing to being able to change shortcuts,
but avoid requiring the user be able to rebind letter keys.
Discussion of conflicts between webapp key commands and those
of the user agent.
Kim: In favor of being able to redefine keys that are used for
commands, but not letters and so forth that aren't used for
commands.
Kelly: Kim wants the user to have control over whether keypress
is handled by the UA or a script, but this doesn't really
address that.
<AllanJ> briefly discussed the previous SC related to the
browser serving itself first (keybindings) before javascript.
currently all browsers let javascript have the keybindings
first then anything not trapped is passed to the browser.
<AllanJ> this was removed as it was never going to be
implemented.
Jan: Browsers reserve some command keys, correct?
Kelly: IE reserved Alt+D; cannot be used as accesskey.
Jan: The UA always grabs the keys first, regardless of whether
they're reserved or passed on to the script first.
<AllanJ> proposal: 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user
can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author
supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user
interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the
operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within
menus). The user must be able to save these settings beyond the
current session. (Level AA)
<AllanJ> perhaps remove the last sentence also, and add a
statement about saving in the intent.
<AllanJ> proposal: 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands: The user
can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author
supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user
interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the
operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within
menus). (Level AA)
Kim, Jan and Greg agree on removing the Save from the SC and
instead noting it in the IER.
<AllanJ> add to the intent "the user should be able to save
these settings beyond the current session"
<Kim> The user should be able to save, import and export these
settings.
<AllanJ> add to related resources: GL 2.7
<AllanJ> proposal proposal: 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands:
The user can remap any keyboard shortcut including recognized
author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user
interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the
operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within
menus). (Level AA)
Greg: I don't like the idea that UA could allow remapping only
to a very limited set of inputs, such as Ctrl plus a single
letter (which is a real-world case), but I'm not going to fight
about it.
<AllanJ> opera allows remaping, firefox does with extension
<AllanJ> opera only allows remaping of accesskeys, but not its
own controls
Jan: We may have difficulty finding implementations that let
one remap *all* keyboard commands.
Resolution: Accept wording 2.3.5 Customize Keyboard Commands:
The user can remap any keyboard shortcut including recognized
author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user agent user
interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the
operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within
menus). (Level AA)
OCAD16 re 2.1.4
2.1.4 Separate Selection from Activation: The user can specify
that focus and selection can be moved without causing further
changes in focus, selection, or the state of controls, by
either the user agent or author content. (Level A)
OCAD16: Does "author content" need a definition? Sometimes also
says "author supplied"
<AllanJ> proposal: 2.1.4 Separate Selection from Activation:
The user can specify that focus and selection can be moved
without causing further changes in focus, selection, or the
state of controls, by either the user agent or author supplied
content. (Level A)
Jim: That is, change "author content" to "author supplied
content".
Greg: "The user can resize viewports within restrictions
imposed by the platform."
... "The user can resize viewports within restrictions imposed
by the platform, overriding any values specified by the
author."
<Jan> 1.8.3 Resize Viewport: Users can maximize the size of
top-level viewports up to the size of the display even if the
author has specified a smaller size. (Level A)
<Jan> 1.8.3 Resize Viewport: The user can resize viewports
within restrictions imposed by the platform, overriding any
values specified by the author. (Level A)
Resolution: Accept wording 1.8.3 Resize Viewport: The user can
resize viewports within restrictions imposed by the platform,
overriding any values specified by the author. (Level A)
OCAD8 re 1.3.2
Options: When highlighting classes specified by 1.3.1
Highlighted Items, the user can specify highlighting options
that include at least: (Level AA) (a) foreground colors, (b)
background colors, and (c) borders (configurable color, style,
and thickness)
OCAD8: This seems like too much configurability, especially if
the user agent developer has chosen highlighting styling to
maximize visibility within the widest variety of possible
content situations. Fluid UIOptions for example enlarges input
fields and makes images underlined and bold.
Resolution: Keep 1.3.2 as it is, because even though many UA
developers may think they have chosen a good default
highlighting option, there will be users who will require
further customization.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Jan to look at 2.5.1 Location in Hierarchy
including possibly to check in with Simon. [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to add Betty example from Jim's email of
27 August 2013 to 1.1.1 [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to check capitalization of handle of 5.1.2
and 5.1.3 [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to go through the guidelines and remove
any period at the end of a guideline. [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jeanne to move examples from 2.11.8 to 1.1.1 and
remove 2.11.8 [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [34]scribe.perl version
1.138 ([35]CVS log)
$Date: 2013-08-28 00:31:30 $
__________________________________________________________
[34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11
Check for newer version at [36]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/
[36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/OAD/OCAD/
Succeeded: s/CAD43/OCAD43/
Succeeded: s/examples in/examples for 3.4.1 in/
Succeeded: s/would/should/
Succeeded: s/emphaized/emphasized/
Succeeded: s/rendered/recognized/
Succeeded: s/LIke/Like/
Succeeded: s/Propose keep/Keep/
Succeeded: s/the SC/SC 2.9.2/
Succeeded: s/from/Remove from/
Found Scribe: kford
Inferring ScribeNick: kford
Found Scribe: JR
Found Scribe: Jan
Inferring ScribeNick: Jan
Found Scribe: greg
Inferring ScribeNick: greg
Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ
Found Scribe: greg
Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ
Found Scribe: greg
Inferring ScribeNick: greg
Scribes: kford, JR, Jan, greg, allanj
ScribeNicks: kford, Jan, greg, AllanJ
WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Admin AllanJ GL Greg JA JR Jan Jeanne Jim KP Kelly Kim
OCAD16 OCAD22 OCAD25 OCAD26 OCAD27 OCAD31 OCAD33 OCAD34 OCAD35 OCAD39 O
CAD43 OCAD45 Proposal example jeanne2 joined kford left srcibe trackbot
ua
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
<dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
<dbooth> Present+ amy
Found Date: 27 Aug 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [37]http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: jan jeanne
[37] http://www.w3.org/2013/08/27-ua-minutes.html
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--
_______________________________
Jeanne Spellman
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative
jeanne@w3.org
Received on Wednesday, 28 August 2013 00:36:04 UTC