RE: minutes: UAWG call 15 September 2011

Hi all,

Sorry that I had to go before the User Style Sheet discussion...

I can see the usefulness to savvy users...
...but perhaps support for user style sheets is an implementation technique for a more general requirement, which is that end-users have final control of the visual display (an extension of 1.4.1 that currently covers just a few text attributes).

If we leave the SC as is, it means that a browser that included fine-grained user control through its settings would fail UAAG if it did not support user style sheets as well.

Cheers,
Jan


-- 
(Mr) Jan Richards, M.Sc.
jrichards@ocad.ca | 416-977-6000 ext. 3957 | fax: 416-977-9844
Inclusive Design Research Centre (IDRC) | http://idrc.ocad.ca/
Faculty of Design | OCAD University


> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ua-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Jim Allan
> Sent: September 15, 2011 2:42 PM
> To: WAI-ua
> Subject: minutes: UAWG call 15 september 2011
> 
> from: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html
> 
> User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
> 15 Sep 2011
> 
> See also: IRC log http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-irc
> Attendees
> 
> Present
>     Jim_Allan, +1.425.883.aaaa, Jan, +1.609.734.aabb, Jeanne,
> Greg_Lowney, Mark, Kelly, Kim_Patch
> Regrets
>     MarkkuH, SimonH
> Chair
>     jimAllan, KellyFord
> Scribe
>     jallan
> 
> Contents
> 
>     Topics
>         Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
>         review CSS3
>         Mobile a11y
>         survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/
>         1.7.x Save copies of style sheets:
>         1.7y The user agent can inform the user when the author style
> sheet has changed
>     Summary of Action Items
> 
> Summary of Action Items
> [NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to add new SC 1.7.x to document. See minutes of
> 15 September [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html#action02]
> [NEW] ACTION: jeanne to add the above examples to 2.1.1 Change the
> user names. [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html#action03]
> [NEW] ACTION: mark to come back with proposal for diff of css by UA or
> kill the SC [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html#action01]
> 
> <trackbot> Date: 15 September 2011
> 
> <kford> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-
> ua/2011JulSep/0010.html
> 
> <kford> **ALL OF GL1 IS COMPLETE!
> 
> <kford> 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6 2.7 2.8 2.9 2.10 2.11
> 
> <kford> 3.1 3.2 3.3 3.4
> 
> <kford> 4.2
> 
> <kford> **ALL OF GL1 IS COMPLETE!!
> 
> <kford> 2.5.1 discover keystrokes
> 
> <kford> 2.7.1 - 7 preference settings
> 
> <kford> 2.11.3, 2.11.4 execution placeholder and toggle
> 
> <kford> 2.11.6 Stop/Pause/Resume Time-Based Media
> 
> <kford> 2.11.7 Navigate Time-Based Media
> 
> <kford> 2.11.8 Semantic Navigation of Time-Based Media
> 
> <kford> 2.11.9 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media
> 
> <kford> 2.11.10 Sizing Playback Viewport: (examples)
> 
> <kford> 2.11.11 Scale and position alternative media tracks (examples)
> 
> <kford> 2.11.12 Adjust Playback Contrast and Brightness (examples)
> **ALL GL3 IER ARE COMPLETE!!!
> 
> <kford> 4.2.1 Hand-off Focus (intent)
> 
> <kford> 4.2.3 Nested user agents (focus) (intent) **ALL OF GL5 IS
> COMPLETE!!
> 
> all: discussing the LCWD of Touch events standard
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-Touch-Events-20110913/
> 
> <scribe> scribe: jallan
> 
> kp: some utility to touch events. can combine unrelated modes to make
> user more efficient.
> Register for TPAC http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
> 
> <Greg> Does the standard identify touch sources and targets and what
> specific gestures each supports, e.g. drag, pinch, draw path?
> 
> <Greg> That is, equivalent of identifying drag source and target.
> 
> js: can register without paying.
> 
> several not registered
> 
> scribe: we will have a phone bridge
> 
> kf: attend by phone.
> 
> tpac registration for in person only, jeanne will set up a reg for
> folks attending by phone.
> 
> mh: change of affiliation, now with ETS. focus on accessibility. web
> delivery and device delivery.
> 
> in browser irc client http://irc.w3.org
> review CSS3
> 
> js: pf has requested that UAWG review.
> 
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/CSS/Spec_Review
> 
> www.w3.org/css
> Mobile a11y
> 
> WAI has requested that UAWG review UAAG for mobile. need sub-group
> 
> should cover smart phone and tablet.
> 
> mobile review participants - mark (tablet), jeanne, kim, jim (?)
> 
> gl: does this concern bandwidth, form factor (small screen), input
> limitations (small, limited keyboard), local storage
> 
> js: looking specifically at UA on mobile devices (interface, content
> access).
> survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/abc/
> 1.7.x Save copies of style sheets:
> 
> 1.7.x Save copies of style sheets: The user can save copies of the
> style sheets referenced by the current page, so that they can edit and
> load them as user style sheets. (AA)
> 
> gl: wanted the last clause to prevent binary downloads of css.
> 
> ja: perhaps save as 'text' to prevent binary downloads.
> 
> gl: need to be more global. what is the UI for this. user needs ready
> access to this. user should be able to specify where it is save.
> ... this should be included in the EIR. what is the minimum we have to
> say in the SC/EIR to make it clear what we want the user to be able to
> do.
> 
> js: webkit implementation UI is good, FF is poor.
> 
> kp: many user don't user tooks because of file management issues. want
> this to be easy.
> 
> kf: file management, unique to the UA or OS
> 
> kp: if you can't find it, you won't us it.
> 
> ja: e.g. stuff save in 'application data' hidden folder.
> 
> mh: most every browser uses the standard system file handling
> 
> <Greg> My example of a user-unfriendly implementation would be that
> done by the Session Manager add-in for Firefox. It allows you to save
> and restore the state of a session or window, and it saves it as a
> text file, but it's hidden in an obscure location that's not told to
> the user, and its in a JSON text format that users cannot easily edit.
> 
> ja: is the AAA or AA
> 
> AAA - MH, KF, JR,
> 
> AA - JS, SH
> 
> <mth> WAT http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
> 
> undecided - JA, GL
> 
> AA - KP
> 
> ja: most browsers allow user to save CSS. and their are plugins.
> 
> js: adding to draft
> 1.7y The user agent can inform the user when the author style sheet has
> changed
> 
> 1.7.y The user agent can inform the user when the author style sheet
> has changed, so they can be warned that they may need to edit their
> user style sheet accordingly
> 
> kf: what is a change in the CSS?
> 
> gl: specific css properties.
> 
> kf: not happening.
> 
> mh: mod to style sheet. if user made specific css for app, then author
> changes css, and info disappears, then what?
> 
> js: user CSS is tough, don't want to change.
> 
> mh: but what if info vanishes and you don't know because of user css.
> 
> js: on big sites, css is tweaked weekly, most invisible to the end
> user.
> 
> kp: if you at least have the info then you can do something about.
> 
> kf: very technical, very difficult to compare documents.
> 
> mh: since I was pushing this on the last call. need to adjust the ier.
> 
> gl: perhaps mark can create scenarios. there may be a need.
> 
> ja: suggest, talking with Wayne Dick in CA
> 
> <scribe> ACTION: mark to come back with proposal for diff of css by UA
> or kill the SC [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html#action01]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-614 - Come back with proposal for diff of
> css by UA or kill the SC [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2011-09-22].
> 
> <jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to add new SC 1.7.x to document. See minutes
> of 15 September [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html#action02]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-615 - Add new SC 1.7.x to document. See
> minutes of 15 September [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-09-22].
> 
> zakim: open item 3
> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JulSep/0073.html
> 
> http://www.csulb.edu/~wed/public/UAAG_2-1Comments-8-19-2011.html
> 
> he was reviewing http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-
> 20110718/
> 
> reviewing first comment: Does the rendering include tool tips? Visual
> readers with low vision (VR/LV) need alternative text for icons
> especially. Currently the "title" attribute is displayed as a tooltip.
> However, since the there is no guideline mandating use of "title" ,
> tooltips may or may not be present in WCAG conformant documents.
> 
> gl: is this about UI or content? 'title' not well supported by AT or
> speech input interface, nor touch interface.
> ... have address this by saying everything should be accessible by
> keyboard, do we need to say more.
> ... if he reads this and is not sure that the GLs apply to
> tooltips...do we need say more
> 
> kf: tooltip from keyboard hasn't happened yet in UA.
> 
> gl: tooltip is only used a couple of times in our document.
> 
> ja: thinks browsers will leave it up to the author to write JS to make
> tooltips keyboard accessible.
> 
> js: perhaps we should answer by saying how we have covered it.
> 
> <Greg> It looks like 1.1 gives users lots of power over when to
> replace elements with their alternative content, but nothing about
> allowing the user to have the alternative content presented to them in
> a transient fashion e.g. by tooltips or other popups when requested.
> 
> kp: tool tips used by mouse. usually provides keyboard short cuts, but
> mouse users don't need it. keyboard users need it, but can't get at
> it.
> 
> gl: tooltips may need to be a new SC.
> 
> kp perhaps need a tooltip example in 2.1.1
> 
> <Greg> Dick has low vision, and can't identify an icon so wants to be
> able to read its alternative text. Most users would be able to hover
> the mouse over the icon and have its alternative text displayed as a
> pop-up or tooltip, but since Dick does not use a mouse, he can
> activate a command that allows him to use the tab key to move the
> keyboard focus to elements that have alternative content and...
> 
> <Greg> ...then press another key to cause the pop-up to be displayed.
> 
> ja: but since Dick does not use a mouse, when he arrows or tabs over
> an item the 'title' element will display as a tooltip.
> 
> discussing problems with tooltip popup in the OS.
> 
> <Greg> Discussions of the pros and cons of automatically displaying
> tooltips as the user moves the focus with the keyboard.
> 
> gl: we don't need 1 UI to solve all problems.
> 
> kf: uses tooltips from the keyboard in the OS as an argument for
> tooltips in the browser.
> 
> <Greg> Dick has low vision, and can't identify an icon so wants to be
> able to read its alternative text. Most users would be able to hover
> the mouse over the icon and have its alternative text displayed as a
> pop-up ortooltip, but since Dick does not use a mouse, he can activate
> a command that allows him to use the tab key to move the keyboard
> focus to elements that have alternative content. Then,...
> 
> <Greg> ...when he tabs to the icon, the browser may automatically
> display the "hover" tooltip, or allow him to press a key to have it
> displayed.
> 
> kf: notes: OS tool tips can be modified in the OS, or turned off
> 
> ja: problem with LV using magnification, when try to read tool tip and
> move mouse the tooltip vanishes
> 
> <KimPatch> Charlie is a speech-recognition user who cannot use his
> hands to control his computer. It is much easier for him to use
> keyboard shortcuts then click on an icon in a new program. He needs to
> be able to see tooltips to discover keyboard shortcuts without having
> to use the mouse.
> 
> gl: my example should be for 2.1.1
> 
> <jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add the above examples to 2.1.1 Change the
> user names. [recorded in
> http://www.w3.org/2011/09/15-ua-minutes.html#action03]
> 
> <trackbot> Created ACTION-616 - Add the above examples to 2.1.1 Change
> the user names. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-09-22].
> 
> <mth> tried to call in again... conference is restricted
> 
> <jeanne> mark, use this code 82942. I'll be right there.
> 
> <mth> 82942 ok
> 
> 
> [End of minutes]
> 
> 
> --
> Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
> Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
> 1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
> voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
> "We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964

Received on Thursday, 15 September 2011 20:14:03 UTC