- From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:41:12 -0500
- To: w3c-wai-ua@w3.org
2 November 2000 UA Guidelines Teleconference
Present:
Harvey Bingham, Mickey Quenzer, Eric Hansen,
Jon Gunderson, Ian Jacobs, Al Gilman
Regrets:
David Poehlman, Jim Allan, Gregory Rosmaita
Absent: Rich Schwerdtfeger, Charles McCathieNevile,
Kitch Barnicle, Tim Lacy
Next meeting: 9 November
Agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0187.html
Minutes of previous meeting 10 October:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0154.html
1.User Agent FTF meeting update
Registered to be there physically: IJ, JG, GR, HB, RS, DA, DP, EH
By phone: TL, MQ, JA
Require hotel rooms: IJ, JG, GR, HB, RS, DA, EH
Action Ian: Reserve hotel rooms for folks.
2.Last call update
- Nothing to the list.
- Ian talked to Adobe
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0195.html
Action JG: add these three issues to issues list.
Action JG:
- Send reminder to chairs and to w3c-wai-ua. For chairs, point to
initial announcement in chairs list. For w3c-wai-ua, point to
initial announcement in w3c-wai-ua:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0140.html
- Send reminder (or announcement) to everyone else on this list:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2000JulSep/0125.html
And, point to full initial announcement in ua list:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0140.html
Note: It looks as though some people not on UA list did not
receive a last call announcement initially. However, the
announcement has been on the home page since 23 October.
Judy Brewer to send announcement today to WAI IG.
3.Implementation report
HB: I'll look at 3.
IJ: I'll be looking at implementations as well.
Guideline 1. Support input and output device-independence.
DP: not available
Guideline 2. Ensure user access to all content.
JG: not available
Guideline 3. Allow the user to configure the user agent not to
render some content that may reduce accessibility.
need reviewer
Guideline 4. Ensure user control of styles.
JA: not available
Guideline 5. Observe system conventions and standard interfaces.
JG:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0146.html
JG:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0149.html
RS:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0163.html
Guideline 6. Implement specifications that promote accessibility.
need reviewer
Guideline 7. Provide navigation mechanisms.
JA:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0152.html
Guideline 8. Orient the user. need reviewer
Guideline 9. Allow configuration and customization. need reviewer
Guideline 10. Provide accessible product documentation and help.
GR: not available
5.Issue #321: Equivalency relationships and the wording of checkpoint
2.3
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0085.html
/* AG joins, CMN joins */
IJ: The problem is in the definition of equivalent. It has
implications related to accessibility. The real issue, I believe,
is not about 2.3 but the definition of equivalent. We proposed
"alternative" because it includes "equivalent" and doesn't have
implications about disabilities.
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0157.html
AG: You may have meant that, but you didn't write that.
Definition of equivalent is broken and needs to be fixed.
I don't think we can close this today.
/* AG has to leave */
EH: A couple of pieces from WCAG that I tried to use are to:
- Have a dfn of equivalency that makes UAAG 1.0 consistent with
WCAG 1.0. Also, language from the WCAG definition of equivalency:
Refer to WCAG:
"In the context of this document, the equivalent must
fulfill essentially the same function for the person
with a disability (at least insofar as is feasible,
given the nature of the disability and the state of
technology), as the primary content does for the person
without any disability."
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#glossary
If you drift too much from this definition, you break the
relationship between UAAG 1.0 and WCAG 1.0 and possibly to
things out of scope for UAAG 1.0.
JG: I think we need to focus on the disability part, not the
more general scope required by "alternative" (e.g,. in
other languages).
IJ: So implications of changing definition of equivalent:
- Relationship to WCAG 1.0 needs examining.
- Relationship to other terms may be broken.
EH: On the "mathematical" interpretation of equality: It's
still applicable here. You can refer to an elephant and
a horse as having an equivalency relationship if you limit
the scope of the attributes to being, e.g., they are mammals.
JG: Our main issue is that there has to be recognized
markup for the UA to be responsible for handling the
equivalents.
CMN: I don't think that it's necessary to restrict
what we call "equivalency relationships" to those that
are for people with disabilities.
IJ: Are you arguing that our requirements should be
larger?
CMN: No. But I still think that the definition is too narrow.
IJ: Why increase the definition if there are no requirements
that benefit?
CMN: Missing a reference group: users of large print.
IJ: Yes, that is true: as defined in this document, equivalency
does not include a reference group requiring large print.
Let's expand the list of reference disability groups rather than
eliminating our assumptions.
EH: We need to think carefully about adding/substracing reference
groups because this is the definition that affects the scope of
WCAG 1.0, checkpoint 1.1. Note that the current definition is
only about pre-rendered content, not rendered content.
CMN: In principle, I agree. We are about ensuring access to
content for users with disabilities. In practice, I think that
our method of defining things is :
a) Deficient in current document.
b) Likely to be deficient if we attempt to define by list.
CMN: Proposed definition of equivalency:
- Delete equivalency target.
- Change "two pieces" to "two or more pieces".
IJ: It's easier to write binary relationships.
CMN: But I think it's harder to talk about equivalents
composed of several pieces.
IJ: That can be covered by saying that an equivalent may
be composed of several pieces.
IJ: There is no "direction" in the definition of equivalent. Where's
the direction?
CMN: Part of my problem is that that definition makes an
assumption about authoring...
IJ: No it doesn't. Text equivalent says nothing about author
intent, only about renderability and potential accessibility.
EH: Here's an example that touches on the issue of directionality. A
sense in which content is bi-polar: there is a person with a
disability at one end, and a person without a disability at the other.
/* Eric gives example with different types of equivalency
relationships. In one, the text is the equivalency target
and a picture is an equivalent, e.g., deaf non-reader.
In another example, the picture is the equivalency target
and the text is the equivalent. But in the first case,
the "picture equivalent" is not a text equivalent. But there
is only a P3 WCAG 1.0 requirement for this.
Note: there's no reason why we call one the target and one
the equivalent. It makes more sense as written because of
how wcag 1.0 is written.
*/
CMN: In markup, you sometimes have things that are explicitly
equivalents of one another (e.g., IMG and "alt" in HTML). In SMIL,
the equivalency relationship is not directly defined. It could be
inferred in a number of cases. The equivalency relationships are
not specified by the author. Can you capture the situation where
it's unambiguous which is the equivalent and which is the
equivalency target?
IJ: Is an equivalent assumed to be accessible to a user
without a disability?
EH: No such claim.
JG: Listening to this, I think that the definition of equivalent needs
to be bound to a disability need. Also, there doesn't seem to be a
compelling argument about using equivalent/equivalency target.
JG: To move forward, I think we may want to incrementally
add to what WCAG says and then let WAI solve the problem outside
of the UAWG. I think we should not try to have a definition of
equivalent that differs substantially from the WCAG 1.0 definition.
Having a broader definition is an issue for the WAI CG.
I don't think that we should change the definition on our
own.
IJ: Is the issue closed? Will the WG entertain a
proposed definition?
CMN: I'm in an interesting position. I'm a sometime
participant and also responsible for reviewing the document
for WAI PF and WAI ATAG. As a comment from PF, I would propose
to change the definition. I think this is an editorial point,
however.
CMN: My meta-comment from PF: Groups say "we don't want to change"
all the time. If no WG wants to take the lead, nothing will change.
Action CMN: Propose a change to the definition for in one week.
6.Issue #322: The definition of the word element
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0131.html
Closed Action items
1.DP: Review checkpoints in Guideline 1 for implementation
information
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0205.html
6.JA: Review checkpoints in Guideline 4 for implementation
information
7.JG: Review checkpoints in Guideline 2 for implementation
information
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0200.html
9.EH and IJ: Propose new language for checkpoint 2.3
Guideline 7:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0152.html
Guideline 5:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2000OctDec/0146.html
8.JG: Send information to CG on interested people to work on
glossary
(Eric, Harvey, Ian)
Open Action Items
2.GR: Contacts for Dolphin for reviewing WCAG
3.GR: Review checkpoints in Guideline 10 for implementation
information
4.MQ: Review speech checkpoints for implementation information
In progress.
5.KB: Submit technique on providing information on current item and
number of items in search
--
Ian Jacobs (jacobs@w3.org) http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel: +1 831 457-2842
Cell: +1 917 450-8783
Received on Thursday, 2 November 2000 15:41:16 UTC