Re: A question about immediate feedback

I realize this is a little late, but thank you all so much for your
responses, you've given us a lot to think about!



*Mike Cleary** (Contractor) | Scrum Master*

*Guidehouse, Inc. *

mike.cleary@GrantSolutions.gov <email@GrantSolutions.gov>



*On Assignment With*

*GrantSolutions*


*Office of Grants, Office of the Assistant Secretary for Financial
Resources (ASFR) U.S. Department of Health and Human Services*

Mobile: 703.627.7501


On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 10:44 AM Michael Livesey <mike.j.livesey@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm not sure there is any tension in 2.2.1
>
> It sets a criterion that we shouldn't make something time dependent that
> is completely reliant on that time dependency.
>
> There are two ways for something not to be completely reliant on time
> dependency 1) the feature/function/information is also available by some
> other means 2) the time limit can be extended by the user.
>
> G198 specifies the method of turning off time limits must not itself be
> subject to time limits - e.g. a header toggle switch is acceptable.
>
> These guidelines are more than flexible enough to allow toast
> notifications whilst ensuring nothing is made inaccessible.
>
> The goal of WCAG is to ensure accessible users can access all the
> information and controls on a website, alternative means of providing these
> features or information is perfectly acceptable.
>
> On Friday, June 27, 2025, Leighton, Chris <
> Christopher.Leighton@team.telstra.com> wrote:
> > There is tension in 2.2.1 ‘Understanding’.
> >
> > This fragment supports the idea that time is important to all-people and
> therefore should be supported by not-auto-disappearing content “The intent
> of this success criterion is to ensure that users with disabilities are
> given adequate time to interact with web content whenever possible”.
> >
> > Compared to the earlier fragment that reduced the idea to ‘tasks’, ”
> Goal: Users have adequate time to complete tasks“.
> >
> > Is the normative idea of ‘interact’ or ‘task’ in WAI inclusive of
> accessing information, or is a task an input or onclick and alike? Those
> are not captured in the 2.2 Glossary.
> >
> > Understanding 2.2.1 in WAI
> >
> > Here's to version 3.
> >
> > Regards, Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > General
> >
> > From: Adam Cooper <cooperad@bigpond.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 27 June 2025 9:45 AM
> > To: 'Steve Green' <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>; 'Mark Magennis' <
> Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
> >
> >
> >
> > [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation – be
> cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
> >
> > Very much agreed, Steve, but, as the benefit statement reads for 4.1.3:
> >
> >
> >
> > “The intended beneficiaries are blind and low vision users of assistive
> technologies with screen reader capabilities. “
> >
> >
> >
> > So, unless people are using Fusion with the speech enabled, I guess WCAG
> isn’t for everyone?
> >
> >
> >
> > Let’s hope that WCAG 3.0 might make popups - regardless of how they’re
> implemented – more accessible because there are gaps as it stands in WCAG
> 2.x as this thread demonstrates clearly.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>
> > Sent: Friday, June 27, 2025 12:11 AM
> > To: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
> >
> >
> >
> > This is one of the benefits of putting the messages in a modal dialog.
> As long as screen magnifier users have enabled tracking, the message will
> automatically move into the viewport when it receives focus. Otherwise, the
> user has to hunt for the message, assuming they even know it exists. That’s
> pretty difficult, even at relatively low magnification levels.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>
> > Sent: 26 June 2025 14:15
> > To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> >
> >
> > A problem with things that are tucked away to not attract too much
> attention is that they are easily missed by some users, particularly users
> of screen magnification. So it's good to think about whether it may be
> possible to use inline notifications rather than pop-ups.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: Mike Cleary <mike.cleary@grantsolutions.gov>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2025 13:55
> > To: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>
> > Cc: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <
> w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: A question about immediate feedback
> >
> >
> >
> > You don't often get email from mike.cleary@grantsolutions.gov. Learn
> why this is important
> >
> > Thanks for all the feedback. I'm not familiar with the code since I'm
> not the developer, but I will pass this all along.
> >
> >
> >
> > The notification popup is about the size and shape of a toast -- just
> big enough to display the message, and tries not to attract too much
> attention, tucked away at lower right -- but it remains on screen until the
> user closes it. It's not a modal (I think).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Cleary (Contractor) | Scrum Master
> >
> > Guidehouse, Inc.
> >
> > mike.cleary@GrantSolutions.gov
> >
> >
> >
> > On Assignment With
> >
> > GrantSolutions
> >
> > Office of Grants, Office of the Assistant Secretary for Financial
> Resources (ASFR)
> > U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
> >
> > Mobile: 703.627.7501
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 4:52 AM Steve Green <
> steve.green@testpartners.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I agree about it being a clear violation of 2.2.1 if the messages
> automatically disappear after a period of time except in the circumstances
> you describe or if a page reload occurs.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Mark Magennis <Mark.Magennis@skillsoft.com>
> > Sent: 26 June 2025 09:38
> > To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: A question about immediate feedback
> >
> >
> >
> > Adam Cooper said:  "It should be onscreen for as long as you believe it
> is necessary for everybody to consume its content and then disappear."
> >
> >
> >
> > Adam, I would have thought that automatically disappearing toast
> notifications are a violation of 2.2.1 Timing Adjustable. Unless they
> disappear when they are no longer valid or one of the other mechanisms
> (turn off, adjust, extend) are implemented.
> >
> >
> >
> > Interested to hear your view on this.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark