- From: Greg Jellin <greg@gregjellin.com>
- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 17:39:34 -0800
- To: Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org>
- Cc: Adam Cooper <cooperad@bigpond.com>, Wai-Ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <ac413a94-8fd1-31d6-428f-06247f87f557@gregjellin.com>
Thanks Quentin, you are coming across a bit hangry to be honest. Those of us in this field deal with a lot of nuance, structural org issues, and host of other difficult challenges. It's generally not super helpful to make a lot of assumptions and rant when responding to a genuine request for advice. I prefer more constructive methods of communicating, much like your last response. All good and moving forward. Greg On 12/12/2022 5:26 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote: > Greg, > > Thanks for the reply. While I probably need to eat lunch so I'm not > hangry, I would reiterate that I didn't intend to come across as > attacking you personally. I appreciate you are analysing the project > externally, and I'm glad that you are advocating for useability and > accessibility. :) > > All the best > > Quentin. > > On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 12:14 PM Greg Jellin <greg@gregjellin.com> wrote: > > Quentin, perhaps you missed the part where I said I agreed and > will advocate for the solution Adam proposed. I agree with pretty > much everything you said, but there is also the reality of > people's positions and reach within an organization. In this case > I'm external to the org and have limited reach. That won't stop me > from making suggestions with those I have access to. > > On 12/12/2022 5:06 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote: >> There is also an unfortunate trend of shaping the argument around >> undesirable but "trendy" behaviour in order check off a criteria >> on a list rather than actually meeting the user need. >> >> Aiming to meet WCAG compliance is good, but surely you should be >> aiming to make the interface USEABLE for the people for whom WCAG >> was designed to help. >> >> You've got a direct response from a screen reader user arguing >> that whether or not your interface technically meets WCAG, it is >> not useable for screen reader users, and your response could be >> taken as "my job is to check off a list, not make it work". And >> I appreciate that you personally likely didn't write the >> interface and that your job is to check off WCAG compliance on >> the project, and I'm not intending to attack you personally. >> BUT, part of that job is also ensuring that the company isn't >> flooded with user complaints saying their product is not >> accessible - they'll come back to you and say "But you said it >> was accessible and met WCAG!". >> >> In fact, representing a screen reader manufacturer myself, I >> completely agree with Adam, and would further argue this isn't >> even an issue exclusive to screen reader users, but to ALL users >> who might try to navigate your list with the keyboard. >> >> Perhaps the question to ask here, is not whether this "solution" >> meets WCAG, but going one step further back, and asking why this >> interface is needed instead of the standard way of navigating >> lists which works across the board, needs no special instruction, >> and wouldn't require you to question whether it meets WCAG or not? >> >> Rant over :) >> >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:59 AM greg jellin >> <greg@gregjellin.com> wrote: >> >> Great point Adam. Totally agree. Unfortunately, my role on >> this task is assessing wcag compliance, however I will >> advocate for that solution. >> >> On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 3:47 PM Adam Cooper >> <cooperad@bigpond.com> wrote: >> >> Greg, >> >> Who cares whether it passes xyz? As a screen reader user, >> tabbing through items in either a menu or list is the >> wrong pattern especially if it's something I am doing >> over and over again like at work. >> >> If I can highlight an option using arrow keys, and then >> tab out of the listbox and onto the next field or button, >> then I have saved a heap of repetitive strain injury ... >> >> There is an unfortunate trend in web design and >> development that believes tabbing is the appropriate >> means of navigating long lists. For example, a WordPress >> global navigation menu. What happens if I need to get to >> the very last item in the very last menu over and over? >> That's right - tab, tab, tab, tab, tab tab ... arrow key >> navigation is much more efficient and saves my brain and >> my joints. >> >> The model for menus is common operating systems - there's >> no reason why the web has to be different (except for >> poor design, development, and rubbish accessibility >> support!). >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Greg Jellin <greg@gregjellin.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2022 9:52 AM >> To: Wai-Ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >> Subject: Is the escape key sufficient as a method for >> WCAG 2.1.2 No Keyboard Trap >> >> I'm dealing with a combobox that presents a list of options >> (role=listbox) after the user types a few characters. >> >> Once the listbox is present, if the user tabs, focus >> moves through each item. Once reaching the end of the >> visible list, focus cycles through the list from the >> beginning. The user can not escape the listbox via tab or >> arrows. >> >> The user can escape the component via the escape key >> (collapses the listbox and the user can continue tabbing >> through the page) or by deleting the text entered into >> the input. >> >> Is this sufficient to pass 2.1.2 No keyboard trap? I >> would argue that the escape key meets the "other standard >> exit method" part of the SC. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Quentin Christensen >> Training and Support Manager >> >> Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/> >> Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ >> Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ >> User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >> Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess> > > > > -- > Quentin Christensen > Training and Support Manager > > Web: www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/> > Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ > Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ > User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess > Twitter: @NVAccess <https://twitter.com/NVAccess>
Received on Tuesday, 13 December 2022 01:39:48 UTC