RE: Lists inside nav necessary?

This is precisely why we do user testing. Theoretical discussions only get you so far. I like to see standards, general principles and recommendations for individual websites all rooted in user research. As Deming said, “Without data you're just a person with an opinion.”

Some of us on this list do user testing, but I suspect that much of it is project-related and that not much pure research is done. How much user research is done prior to the creation of the WCAG success criteria and Understanding and Techniques pages? Is any of this research available for review?

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com> 
Sent: 11 June 2020 15:59
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Lists inside nav necessary?

In my example the sign in link is not part of the same list structure as other navigation links -- but it's in it's own list of one item or perhaps it's in a list of two items "sign out" and "account" that are visually grouped together.

Also telling a user that they can turn off list announcements and not hear any lists on the page just so they don't have to hear navigation items announced as a list is not a feasible option.

We have to weigh user needs with user training and requirements put on authors to create a balance in writing and understanding the criteria.   It seems like no matter which side I fall on an issue there is always someone saying I am either against the average user or an activist.  It is very hard to come up with a set of requirements that can be agreed upon and be taking up by millions of websites.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk> 
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:40 AM
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Lists inside nav necessary?

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If the navigation links are not related, then of course they should not be in a list. In a typical menu, the links all point to major sections of the website, so they are clearly related. However, a Sign-in link would not belong in such a list. It's not just that it's in a visually separate list, but it's also logically separate.

I am not at all convinced that the personal preferences of people on this list are a good basis for making decision, because such people are of massively higher proficiency than average. If you don't want to hear list structure, turn it off in your verbosity settings. Don't deny it to every other screen reader user.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
Sent: 11 June 2020 15:22
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Lists inside nav necessary?

I personally do not believe a list of horizontal navigation links without bullets requires list markup if it is contained in a navigation structure.  The number of list items is not communicated visually and there is no visual indication of a list to require list markup is above what is required by SC 1.3.1 Information and relationships.   Use of list markup when a navigation element is available add extra verbosity that I do not want to hear and just confuses and clutters the experience.  Often the navigation links are not even related and I hear lists with one item or two items in them such as "sign in", "account name", etc. in separate lists as they are visually separate navigation groups.  Prior to ARIA and HTML5 list structure made sense to group things visually that had no other way to be grouped but today that is no longer needed and WCAG does not specify what techniques must be used to conform.  Requiring specific techniques to conform

If folks feel this is a hard requirement then I'd encourage a issue to be created in the WCAG Github repository and a formal decision be made so we can all be testing against this requirement the same way.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Green <steve.green@testpartners.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:03 AM
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Lists inside nav necessary?

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


I would argue that a horizontal series of links is still a grouping of related items that should be conveyed programmatically. Whether or not there are bullet points or it looks like a list is irrelevant.

I assumed that Tobias only put three links in his example for brevity, and that in most cases there would be more links. I agree that link mark-up seems superfluous for short lists, but there is an argument for consistency within a website. Also, screen reader users won't be able to use the L key to find the menu if it's not marked-up as a list. Of course they could navigate by landmark, but in my experience of user testing, almost no one does. I know many of the screen reader users on this list do navigate by landmarks, but they are mostly super power users by comparison with the average user.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
Sent: 11 June 2020 12:00
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Lists inside nav necessary?

While the answers so far are of course correct, I'd still question to an extent how "necessary" the use of lists is in very simple examples. When there are only 2-3 links or so, is it truly essential that the fact there are 2-3 links is conveyed, and the additional context of "1 of 2",
"2 of 2" before the links is not more verbose than anything else?

While 1.3.1 does require that structure conveyed visually/by layout also be conveyed programmatically...what happens when visually these links are simply shown as a horizontal series of links - no bullet points, not "list-like" layout. Simply 2-3 links on a row next to each other?
Sometimes, "a cigar is just a cigar" and I'd argue that, for very simple cases, it's actually ok NOT to have a list. I'd certainly feel very odd dinging a site with a hard FAIL for not wrapping just 2-3 links shown in a row as a list.

(and, as an aside, note how VoiceOver actually suppresses announcements of lists when their visual list-like styling has been suppressed via CSS...so in many cases, even IF authors then go through the extra effort of conveying structural semantics, they may not actually be conveyed).

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

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Received on Thursday, 11 June 2020 15:32:30 UTC