Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation Problem

Howdy Everyone,

Sorry for the radio silence.  Wilco and I have been attending AccessU in
Austin, Texas full-tilt.  Apologies for the noise caused by us publishing
from google drive.  I managed to find the time to semantically mark up the
paper in html yesterday between sessions, but I want to give Wilco a chance
to do a brief review.  Wilco and I had a quick chat...and I think he will
republish the white paper from github.  He is on a plane right now, flying
back to the Netherlands...and we are both functioning on very, very little
sleep.  So, I deeply appreciate your patience as we move the paper to github
.

Thanks to each of you who have read the paper and have given us feedback on
the concept of A11Y Peace.   Wilco and I have been reading and thinking
deeply about all your great input.  Only reason I haven't responded
directly to feedback yet...is I thought it would be wonderful to sit with
Wilco and process this thoughtful feedback together.

In other words...we love, love, love hearing your thoughts.  Your ideas for
improvements, suggestions for changes, when the paper resonates with you,
when it doesn't.  (and Wilco...feel free to respond directly...yeah, we are
co-authors of this paper...but I don't want to slow down the
conversation...and you know I think the world of you and your perspective).

As Mark Urban so aptly said, life is imperfect...but together we can make a
positive impact on a11y and use our energy for good.

A11Y Peace!
Love,
Goodwitch

P.S.  AccessU was phenomenal this year!  But I think I need a 3 day nap.
My brain is overflowing and my body is exhausted.

*glenda sims* <glenda.sims@deque.com>, cpacc
<http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/certification>   | team a11y lead
| 512.963.3773

        deque systems <http://www.deque.com>  accessibility for good

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 10:34 PM, Sean Murphy (seanmmur) <seanmmur@cisco.com
> wrote:

> GIT, direct link from a web page to a downloadable file or a Web Page as a
> blog. :-)
>
> Regards
> Sean Murphy
> Accessibility Software ENGINEER
> seanmmur@cisco.com
> Tel: +61 2 8446 7751
>
> Cisco Systems, Inc.
> The Forum 201 Pacific Highway
> ST LEONARDS
> 2065
> Australia
> cisco.com
>
> http://www.cisco.com/go/accessibility
>
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Russell, Jon (CTR) <jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov>
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 May 2018 10:46 PM
> To: Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> Cc: Tim Harshbarger <tim.harshbarger.cqwg@statefarm.com>; Felix Miata <
> mrmazda@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
> Interpretation Problem
>
> <<google docs as common ground>>
>
> For future reference, what would be a more superior common ground, other
> than google docs, for posting accessibility documents, to mitigate the
> current accessibility issue?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jon Russell
> Software Tester
> Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
> Evaluation (T&E)
> 1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
> Desk:  703-235-9306
> Mobile:  202-744-8333
> jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:43 PM
> To: Russell, Jon (CTR) <jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov>
> Cc: Tim Harshbarger <tim.harshbarger.cqwg@statefarm.com>; Felix Miata <
> mrmazda@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
> Interpretation Problem
>
> well google is yes, you can search it even in html, no account required.
> However google services like documents and hangouts etc., are not  the
> same as google so to speak.  More doors to dance through, which is why
> personally there should be  more than one path to information.
> I respect their motive, after all it is easy to feel everyone uses a
> computer as they might.  Still the P in pc stands for personal.
> Cheers,
> Kare
>
>
>
> On Tue, 15 May 2018, Russell, Jon (CTR) wrote:
>
> > Good point.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims were seeking common ground
> when posting on google docs  --  since google is pretty universal.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jon Russell
> > Software Tester
> > Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
> > Evaluation (T&E)
> > 1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
> > Desk:  703-235-9306
> > Mobile:  202-744-8333
> > jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:30 PM
> > To: Russell, Jon (CTR) <jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov>
> > Cc: Tim Harshbarger <tim.harshbarger.cqwg@statefarm.com>; Felix Miata
> > <mrmazda@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> > Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
> > Interpretation Problem
> >
> > Oh brilliantly said!
> > I wonder, if part of the feeling mad comes  from the situation, that in
> so
> > many   ways access begins and ends with the individual, but those in
> > policy  seats feel they must project in a general way?
> > Personally I feel the more common ground  one seeks, and I mean
> communicating from common frames of reference, perhaps the greater
> progress....but that is me.
> > Speaking for myself I fail to understand how generalizations, the
> assumption that all those sharing a label are interchangeable in how they
> access technology serves the greater society if that makes sense.
> > You are not living that individuals experience, but you likely share a
> frame of reference that might lead to a more positive outcome.
> > "you may say that I'm a dreamer.."
> > John Lenon
> > Kare
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 15 May 2018, Russell, Jon (CTR) wrote:
> >
> >> I think Mr. Urban hit the nail on the head -- even when making
> documents accessible on the web:
> >>
> >> ***** No matter what I answer, the result is  “A good compromise
> >> leaves everyone mad”*. *****
> >>
> >> -----
> >>
> >> Good morning!
> >>
> >> I had to comment on this work.  This is, I hope, a start to a very
> important discussion in the community: that there are more than just levels
> of conformance, there are levels of strictness that are driven by the
> competing interests of those of us that use WCAG.
> >>
> >> I find myself, as a Chief Accessibility Officer, often in the midst of
> these wars.  Developers often speak of buglists, advocates speak of equal
> access, lawyers speak of liability, and researchers speak of best
> practice.  And they come to my door to have me decide “what’s the line?”.
> No matter what I answer, the result is  “A good compromise leaves everyone
> mad”*.
> >>
> >> We need to stop being mad about the fact that life is imperfect, and
> that there are tradeoffs.  The key is to identify the principle of
> accessibility, hold to that, and recognize that success means different
> things to different people and different organizations, and that’s OK.
> Advocates SHOULD push for functional accessibility, developers SHOULD
> question the implementation, project managers SHOULD talk about level of
> effort, lawyers SHOULD put concerns about liability on the table.  We all
> have something to add, to help this thing called accessibility improve
> every day.
> >>
> >> Again, well done, to start the conversation.  Cheers for helping mark
> out the common ground.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Mark D. Urban
> >> CDC/ATSDR Section 508 Coordinator
> >> Office of the Chief Information Officer (OCIO) Office of the Chief
> >> Operating Officer (OCOO) Murban@CDC.gov | 919-541-0562 office
> >>
> >> -----
> >>
> >> Jon Russell
> >> Software Tester
> >> Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
> >> Evaluation (T&E)
> >> 1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
> >> Desk:  703-235-9306
> >> Mobile:  202-744-8333
> >> jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:15 PM
> >> To: Russell, Jon (CTR) <jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov>
> >> Cc: Tim Harshbarger <tim.harshbarger.cqwg@statefarm.com>; Felix Miata
> >> <mrmazda@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The
> >> Accessibility Interpretation Problem
> >>
> >> Well, speaking for myself, the link below took me to a page where
> google informed me it was my account, but no way to read the document.
> >> Question? If one wishes to educate individuals who may be using a
> variety
> >> of   methods to reach  information, why use one that  requires layers to
> >> access?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, 15 May 2018, Russell, Jon (CTR) wrote:
> >>
> >>> Indeed they did.
> >>>
> >>> The authors WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims provide an online web link to
> the white paper.
> >>>
> >>> Not sure what this comment is coming from in regard to the white paper
> not being available as a web document:
> >>>
> >>> "Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web
> documents in traditional web document format?"
> >>>
> >>> Read the White Paper:   "A11Y Wars: The Accessibility Interpretation
> Problem" >>>  http://bit.ly/a11ypeace
> >>>
> >>> -- WIlco Fiers & Glenda Sims
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Jon Russell
> >>> Software Tester
> >>> Section 508 Trusted Tester Certified 301122 DHS NPPD IP IICD Test &
> >>> Evaluation (T&E)
> >>> 1310 North Courthouse Road 04 – 306 – Arlington VA
> >>> Desk:  703-235-9306
> >>> Mobile:  202-744-8333
> >>> jon.russell@associates.hq.dhs.gov
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Tim Harshbarger <tim.harshbarger.cqwg@statefarm.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:06 PM
> >>> To: Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net>; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >>> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The
> >>> Accessibility Interpretation Problem
> >>>
> >>> I apologize.  I probably should have worded my original e-mail
> >>> differently.  Personally I think that the document is already being
> >>> made available in a format usable on the web.  The problem I ran
> >>> into is that my company restricts our access to some sites (like
> >>> Google
> >>> Docs.)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>> Tim
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Felix Miata [mailto:mrmazda@earthlink.net]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:29 PM
> >>> To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [White paper] A11Y Wars: The Accessibility
> >>> Interpretation Problem
> >>>
> >>> Glenda Sims composed on 2018-05-15 11:43 (UTC-0500):
> >>>
> >>>> Tim Harshbarger wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Would it be possible for you also to share this document in some
> >>>>> other format or location—like a web site?  I am interested in
> >>>>> reading the document, but our company does not allow us to access
> Google Docs.
> >>>
> >>> + + +
> >>>
> >>>> I'd be delighted to send you a copy of the white paper as a word
> document.
> >>>> In fact...it should be in your inbox right now.
> >>>
> >>> Seriously?!?! Why the resistance to providing a document about web
> documents in traditional web document format?
> >>> --
> >>> "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get
> >>> wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
> >>>
> >>> Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
> >>>
> >>> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>