Re: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and HTML5 <main> element

Steve
you're right arguing is senseless...

However, it's worth considering the principle Ian promotes:
That the UA ignores (the way I understand what he proposes)
<header><nav><footer><aside><etc> and lands on <main>, e.g., (my
understanding/interpretation) by using a built-in short-cut key exposed to
all users.

There is no reason why the two principles cannot co-exist, and Ian's
proposal will form a perfect fail-safe when authors do not use role=main or
<main>.

Kind regards
Harry






On 27 March 2013 11:14, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all, this discussion appears to be going nowhere
>
> We have landmark semantics that are interoperably supported across
> browsers and AT, we have evidence to suggest that users find them useful.
> We have mapping of  landmarks built in to HTML structural elements (in
> various stages of implementation)
> We have evidence to suggest that authors understand how to implement
> landmarks.
>
>
> Then we have a thought experiment from hixie that says hey you don't need
> those landmarks especially role=main. This idea has been brought up over
> and over by Hixie (note it was rejected on his home turf at the WHATWG) and
> never gained any traction, browser implementers rejected it in favour of
> adding the <main> element ( a number of whom have already implemented it).
>
> So we now have a method that works (is supported out of the box by AT) and
> work is also happening to build upon it to provide a simple browser built
> in skip to content feature that any user can make use of, so in time the
> necessity of providing a skip link will diminish.
>
> It would therefore seem more productive to be debating other topics.
>
>
> with regards
>
> --
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>  <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>
>
>
> On 27 March 2013 08:50, Léonie Watson <tink@tink.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Ian Hickson wrote:
>> "In the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated questioning. The
>> user indicates to the software that the user wishes to skip uninteresting
>> content and jump to interesting content, in a single action (exactly the
>> same kind of action as is used to jump to a header, or to jump to a
>> specific landmark role). Then, the user agent skips all uninteresting
>> content and jumps straight to the content the user wants (the same content
>> as would be marked with <main> or role=main)."
>>
>> >From the user's point of view I think this is right. The phrases
>> "interesting" and "uninteresting" are too subjective to be helpful, but
>> essentially a single command that moves focus to the start of the main
>> content area of the page is the goal.
>>
>> >From an implementation point of view I think this is inefficient. It's
>> more reliable and less process intensive to move from A to Z, than it is to
>> move from A, to B, to C, to D and so on until all that remains by a process
>> of elimination is Z.
>>
>> So if the goal is to have a single mechanism for moving directly to a
>> given point on the page, what's the hook the UA uses to make that possible?
>>
>>
>> Léonie.
>> --
>> Carpe diem.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ian Hickson [mailto:ian@hixie.ch]
>> Sent: 27 March 2013 02:11
>> To: JF
>> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>> Subject: RE: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and
>> HTML5 <main> element
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, JF wrote:
>> >
>> > A man arrives at the San Jose airport in Silicon Valley.
>> >
>> > "I want to go to the campus" he tells the cab driver.
>> >
>> > "The Stanford campus?", asks the cabbie.
>> >
>> > [...]
>>
>> Could you explain to me how this analogy corresponds to the discussion?
>> In the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated questioning. The user
>> indicates to the software that the user wishes to skip uninteresting
>> content and jump to interesting content, in a single action (exactly the
>> same kind of action as is used to jump to a header, or to jump to a
>> specific landmark role). Then, the user agent skips all uninteresting
>> content and jumps straight to the content the user wants (the same content
>> as would be marked with <main> or role=main).
>>
>> The user experience is _exactly_ the same as the experience possible with
>> explicit landmark roles. The only difference is how it is marked up.
>>
>> --
>> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
>> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
>> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>