Re: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and HTML5 <main> element

Hi all, this discussion appears to be going nowhere

We have landmark semantics that are interoperably supported across browsers
and AT, we have evidence to suggest that users find them useful.
We have mapping of  landmarks built in to HTML structural elements (in
various stages of implementation)
We have evidence to suggest that authors understand how to implement
landmarks.


Then we have a thought experiment from hixie that says hey you don't need
those landmarks especially role=main. This idea has been brought up over
and over by Hixie (note it was rejected on his home turf at the WHATWG) and
never gained any traction, browser implementers rejected it in favour of
adding the <main> element ( a number of whom have already implemented it).

So we now have a method that works (is supported out of the box by AT) and
work is also happening to build upon it to provide a simple browser built
in skip to content feature that any user can make use of, so in time the
necessity of providing a skip link will diminish.

It would therefore seem more productive to be debating other topics.

with regards

--
SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
 <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>


On 27 March 2013 08:50, Léonie Watson <tink@tink.co.uk> wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:
> "In the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated questioning. The
> user indicates to the software that the user wishes to skip uninteresting
> content and jump to interesting content, in a single action (exactly the
> same kind of action as is used to jump to a header, or to jump to a
> specific landmark role). Then, the user agent skips all uninteresting
> content and jumps straight to the content the user wants (the same content
> as would be marked with <main> or role=main)."
>
> >From the user's point of view I think this is right. The phrases
> "interesting" and "uninteresting" are too subjective to be helpful, but
> essentially a single command that moves focus to the start of the main
> content area of the page is the goal.
>
> >From an implementation point of view I think this is inefficient. It's
> more reliable and less process intensive to move from A to Z, than it is to
> move from A, to B, to C, to D and so on until all that remains by a process
> of elimination is Z.
>
> So if the goal is to have a single mechanism for moving directly to a
> given point on the page, what's the hook the UA uses to make that possible?
>
>
> Léonie.
> --
> Carpe diem.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian Hickson [mailto:ian@hixie.ch]
> Sent: 27 March 2013 02:11
> To: JF
> Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Rethinking the necessities of ARIA landmark role "main" and
> HTML5 <main> element
>
> On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, JF wrote:
> >
> > A man arrives at the San Jose airport in Silicon Valley.
> >
> > "I want to go to the campus" he tells the cab driver.
> >
> > "The Stanford campus?", asks the cabbie.
> >
> > [...]
>
> Could you explain to me how this analogy corresponds to the discussion? In
> the interface I am proposing, there is no repeated questioning. The user
> indicates to the software that the user wishes to skip uninteresting
> content and jump to interesting content, in a single action (exactly the
> same kind of action as is used to jump to a header, or to jump to a
> specific landmark role). Then, the user agent skips all uninteresting
> content and jumps straight to the content the user wants (the same content
> as would be marked with <main> or role=main).
>
> The user experience is _exactly_ the same as the experience possible with
> explicit landmark roles. The only difference is how it is marked up.
>
> --
> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>
>
>
>