Re: a single label where multiple fields follow

Hi Jim,

I don't want to keep asking daft questions, but I would like to clarify this...

>> It
is ill advised to use both title and label on any one control. Screen
readers get confused - it seems. Use title or label. Text of title attribute
could be same as above

Does this mean it is OK to not have any label associated with a control, provided they have a title, fieldset and legend? For example:

<fieldset>
 <legend>Date of Birth</legend>
 <input type="text" title="day of birth">
 <input type="text" title="month of birth">
 <input type="text" title="year of birth">
</fieldset>

Or is it required that we have a label for each form control?

Cheers,
Paul
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jim Thatcher 
  To: 'Antony Tennant' ; 'Michael S Elledge' 
  Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org 
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:11 PM
  Subject: RE: a single label where multiple fields follow



  Hi Antony: Comments in line marked with <jt>

  Jim

  Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
  512-306-0931

  So with this in mind, still assuming visual design dictates they are
  multiple inputs and using the scenario of date of birth (3 inputs,
  dd,mm,yyyy) or credit card (4 inputs), would you consider it better to have 

  1. a label for each input and for the additional inputs to position there
  labels off screen not using "hidden" in the class namimg convention (not
  sure if this would always inform the user the data is split across field
  when they encounter the first input)

  <jt> Not clear what you intended, But you cant put the label "date of birth
  (dd,mm,yyyy)" and any single input - it does not make sense. I would
  probably use "day of birth", "Month of birth", and "year of birth" for the
  three hidden  labels.</jt>
  or

  2. having a label for the first inputs and titles for the subsequent inputs
  (I seem to recall reading that it is not advised to use both, but not sure)

  <jt>Again, I can't imagine a workable visible label for the first field. It
  is ill advised to use both title and label on any one control. Screen
  readers get confused - it seems. Use title or label. Text of title attribute
  could be same as above.</jt>

  or

  3. not have a label for the first input but have titles for all inputs (only
  where multiple inputs apply, all remaing 1 to 1 ratio would still use
  labels)

  <jt> I think I have answered this - in both the above cases. Use hidden
  labels or title attributes in all cases where one visual label covers more
  than one control. ... What am I missing? </jt>

  or 

  4. there is a better way

  hope I have been clear on the scenrios but it confuses me which to go for

  Antony
  ----- Original Message ----
  From: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
  To: Michael S Elledge <elledge@msu.edu>
  Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
  Sent: Thursday, 21 September, 2006 4:03:41 PM
  Subject: RE: a single label where multiple fields follow
  Michael, that's a good technique too. Strange thing is that class "hidden"
  could also be display:none. Turns out that screen readers ignore
  display:none content, as I think they should, except when it is in a label
  element!

  By the way, in a previous post, I wrongly attributed code where the labele
  element contained three inputs to David Dorward - it was not his, it was
  Paul Collins'.

  Jim

  Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
  512-306-0931

  -----Original Message-----
  From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org] On Behalf
  Of Michael S Elledge
  Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:42 AM
  To: Terrence Wood
  Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org; Antony Tennant
  Subject: Re: a single label where multiple fields follow


  I suspect I may get some critical responses...
  :-)

  however, where the input fields are self-evident to sighted users (such 
  as for month/day/year drop downs) but still useful for screen reader 
  users, you can consider moving labels off screen using CSS. That way you 
  have the benefit of providing additional context without relying solely 
  on title tags or causing unnecessary screen clutter:

  <fieldset>
  <legend>Dates for Stay:</legend>
  Check in:
  <label for="CheckInMonth" class="hidden">Check in month: 
  </label><br />
  <select name="monIn" id="CheckInMonth" title="Check in 
  Month">
  <option value="1">Jan</option>
  <option value="2">Feb</option>
  </select>

  <label for="CheckInDay" class="hidden">Check in day: 
  </label>
  <select name="dayIn" id="CheckInDay" title="Check in Day">
  <option value="1">1</option>
  <option value="2">2</option>
  <option value="25">25</option>
  </select>

  <label for="CheckInYear" class="hidden">Check in year: 
  </label>
  <select name="yearIn" id="CheckInYear" title="Check in 
  Year">
  <option value="2006">2006</option>
  <option value="2007">2007</option>
  </select><br /><br />

  Check out: <br />
  <label for="CheckOutMonth" class="hidden">Check out 
  month: </label>
  <select name="monOut" id="CheckOutMonth" title="Check 
  Out Month">
  <option value="1">Jan</option>
  <option value="2">Feb</option>
  </select>

  <label for="CheckOutDay" class="hidden">Check out day: 
  </label>
  <select name="dayOut" id="CheckOutDay" title="Check Out 
  Day">
  <option value="1">1</option>
  <option value="2">2</option>
  <option value="27">27</option>
  </select>

  <label for="CheckOutYear" class="hidden">Check out year: 
  </label>
  <select name="yearOut" id="CheckOutYear" title="Check 
  Out Year">
  <option value="2006">2006</option>
  <option value="2007">2007</option>
  </select><br />
  </fieldset>

  .hidden {
  position: absolute;
  left: -500px;
  top: -500px;
  }

  Mike

  Terrence Wood wrote:
  >
  >
  > On 22/09/2006, at 12:43 AM, Antony Tennant wrote:
  >> I would like to get some opinions on the best practise for assigning 
  >> <label for""> to inputs where there are multiple inputs
  >
  > Labels relate to one control only, however, a control can have 
  > multiple labels.
  >
  > Group related controls together using fieldset and legend.
  >
  > Telephone Example (inputs omitted for brevity)
  >
  > <fieldset><legend>Telephone number</legend>
  > <label for="countrycode">...
  > <label for="areacode">...
  > <label for="number">...
  > </fieldset>
  >
  >
  >
  > kind regards
  > Terrence Wood.
  >
  >